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I paddle a Jefe now. I have paddled the Nomad and the Rocker in easier places but I would think they would perform similarly since they do not have chines to speak of. The Burn and similar hulls may be able to "surf" or "cut" out, I don't know.

Recently I have been in a few glassy green water steep holes. Playboaters dreamland, just the opposite in a creeker.

How do you get out of these holes? Been caught in several recently and basically had to get myself windowshaded and flushed out of the corners after a minute or two surf session.

I have found leaning forward and backward while digging futile. While caught in a sidesurf, fully in control what are you doing to save yourself? I have not tried leaning all the way back and reaching over the shoulder (paddlers box issue) nor have I had the wherewithal to lean into the foam dramatically, I guess the opposite (leaning into the green toungue) has gotten me window shaded and if I was near the corners I luckily flushed.

Anyway, trial and error without instruction is getting old so I am wondering if you guys have some instructions...or tips...or suggestions...or a video camera (mark!)

So, imagine yourself in a steep hole sidesurf (in control) in your creeker...what's your next move?

-rg
 

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Dig, man, dig. Pick whichever corner is more downstream and dig for it. When you get there, lean towards the corner. You see a lot of people trying to dig out of a hole -- let's say they're stroking forward in the pile trying to get out bow first -- and they lean backward because it feels natural. But if you think about it, that's what you do in a playboat to surf back into the hole. So lean forward. If you're not getting out and get sucked back in, then start to stroke hard towards the other end and gain some momentum.

If that doesn't work, surf around front and try to cartwheel. :D
 

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My next move best case scenario... Surf to the side I'm facing if possible to gain momentum, do an aggressive back sweep or stern draw to turn my bow into the curtain and go for the pop up ender to pogo me out. Other options include, if you can't surf to one side to gain momentum, just looking over your downstream shoulder to turn your stern into the curtain, letting go down and try to pop yourself forward with a stern ender or... try one of the above roll and get flushed... or roll and end up side surfing again repeat a few times and then well, if you're still side surfing I would SWIM FOR IT. Grab the curtain with your hands, ball up and go deep so you come out well downstream of the hole. One key is to not be satisfied with the side surf. Work around in the hole until something happens (or not) and no matter how it happens take your opportunity if you end up facing downstream to take a flurry of hard forward strokes and get your ass out of the hole.
 

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Old school rodeo! :razz:

Rule #1 is keep moving. Don't just hang on the side surf and sap your strength--you'll need it for the swim that's *gonna* happen if you just sit there.

The way out will depend on the hole, the boat and the paddler, and your decision will often be made for you, but given the choice, the progression of things to try might go something like this...

Work the corners: if you can get to that green water, that's your ticket out.

Get perpendicular to the hole and ender out. Tailstand may work too, but is more likely to flip you back into the hole.

Reach down deep on the downstream side, just watch that shoulder, and if it's really aerated, you may have trouble getting back up on the side surf.

Windowshade (I'm pretty close to swimming if that option's looking attractive)

One I've never tried, but people say works is to pull your skirt and hang in your boat to flush out the bottom. If you make it, you'll be paddling a swamped boat, so maybe not if there are real hazards below, but otherwise it could be worth a shot...
 

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I asked the same question once

Here was very good advice from a very good boater.

1.) work the corners and dig deep
2.) attempt stern squirt
3.) wave wheel /cartwheel out
4.) extend your body and reach deep in the hole and it can flussh you out. I've even extended my arms over my head upside down to get the paddle into the outflow.
5.) pull the skirt and swamp the boat.

This list has poped me out of alot of holes.
 

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One side comment is that "training" for surf sessions in your creekboat can help out a lot. I surf waves and small holes in my creek boat as much as I can to get practice. It gets you used to how hard it is to turn the boat around, and gets you used to the feeling of surfing the boat. Practicing in a forgiving environment can give you a good idea of what works and what doesn't and can give you some confidence in a tough situation.

I think this approach works at all levels. I remember reading something about a guy jumping into huge holes on NF payette praciting for the stikine. Same theory just upping it big time.

As for the popping the skirt, I've heard about that, but I'm not convinced about that technique. If you come out with a full boat and no skirt on, you aren't going to have much control and you will likely be swimming soon anyways. Trying to get out of a hole, only to paddle difficult water with a completely full boat sounds kinda like jumping out of the pot and into the fire. Whats the difference between that and just swimming?
 

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4.) extend your body and reach deep in the hole and it can flussh you out. I've even extended my arms over my head upside down to get the paddle into the outflow.

This list has poped me out of alot of holes.
I did that once and ended up in ER, followed by surgery to reattach my pec major. I would say never extend your arms over your head in a hole. Or maybe never, ever. Swimming would have been a much more fun option.
Taking your creekboat to one of the holes in a local park is a great way to practice strategys with low consequence. It was how I rebuilt my confidence in holes after my surgery.
 

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#4

If I find myself upside-down in a hole, I almost always give a #4 reach to the bottom. Nothing ripped so far but a good thing to keep in mind.
-d
 

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Let's review so far:

I am all in the paddlers box, no #4 for me. Swim first. Think about that exposure on the weakest part of your body even as a novice I strongly advise against this. Submersing 70 gallons of air and your body has got to be 3 to 400 pounds. Also, I think #4 may be feasible for the playpark waves and this may be an easy way out...I am talking more about Pine Creek hole at 1700, Satan's gut or little niagra at 50K in Cataract, the hole river center after Wall slammer in the Royal Gorge at 3K and mini versions of the above found all over Colorado rivers and creeks.

#1 dig for corners or seam: So I finally make it to the corner and my boat is now pointing down stream...at this point I expect to be digging in the foam on my surf side so is it paddle-fu both sides in the foamy water or lean into the seam opposite where I was just digging and dig for green? I know this is subjective but you get the picture. I think paddle fu here but have tried this and posture tends to send me back for round 2.
#2 Ender. First half of the loop, I got this one - provided I can get my bow to greenwater before I windowshade. The two recent sessions I had were much to steep for this b/c I tried to no avail. Pretty important though, all that volume and buoyancy sinking if you can get that far it would definitely give the momentum advantage.
#3 Stern squirt with a dynamic sweep or backstroke. Takes balls and skill...I am 50% in here (25% of each). Same concept as above just in reverse and I would think I would flip upon exit. At my level throwing a squirt in the Jefe is the same mentality as window shading on purpose, on the other hand I would rather pop than just window shade.

About this pulling the skirt...I like the idea in a pool drop situation however the last few times I been in this situation by the time I got out it took 300 yards to catch an eddy to catch my breath. I don't think I could stroke a couple hundred pound boat to shore after a beat-down and certainly couldn't paddle mank. I never really tried to roll a full boat either, perhaps I will try tonight in the park.

I think the cartwheel thing is near impossible for me...with that effort I would be throwing bow or stern for the proverbial ender or squirt pop-out. I have really had a hard time getting the bow forward once on the side.

How about this for #4-stay calm, hold on. After watching Boomers video and seeing his mindset here YouTube - Boomer's Beatdown has saved me from 2 swims lately (thanks Boomer!). I can say I was ridiculously exhausted when I finally flushed from the 2 above near swims. Leads me to another question...when to swim. I have been longer than 90 seconds in a couple holes getting beaten but also getting oxygen. I really couldn't stay there all day but it would be my choice to get out not fight or flight reaction. I suppose when my energy level is low enough that I stop fighting it will be time but then what about self rescue energy?

Thanks for the input fellas! Keep it comin.
 

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Let's review so far:


#3 Stern squirt with a dynamic sweep or backstroke. Takes balls and skill...I am 50% in here (25% of each). Same concept as above just in reverse and I would think I would flip upon exit. At my level throwing a squirt in the Jefe is the same mentality as window shading on purpose, on the other hand I would rather pop than just window shade.


Thanks for the input fellas! Keep it comin.

i got really lucky 2 weeks ago on lower narrows. was stuck in the middle hole after i think the second big hole. tried to make the move over the rooster and to the left, no speed and straight down the gut and into the hole. i was practically facing downstream and thought i was going to get lucky with an easy out but nope sucked me and held me in. side surfing a little and got a nice little bounce off my bow and threw the stern straight back down into the green above the hole... was totally underwater in my jefe for about 15 feet(lenght not depth) than exploded to the surface mystery move style. good time....
 

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#4 doesn't have to be put your hands above your head and rips your arms out of socket. Instead of normal setup with paddle at the surface, you can keep the blades in the water and search around for some green water to get some purchase on without totally killing your shoulder. This method finally got me out of a hole on the green truss section of the white salmon. Meaty little unnamed ledge hole that cartwheeled me and was tossing me around. Got several breaths while I was in there, but I was not coming out. Finally found some green water and just held the blades there in a static pull and I flushed out.
 

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Rg5hole, if you watch that video... what Boomer ended up doing to get out of that hole was to endo backwards into it. That pushed him out. I have watched that video a hundred times cause it's a good learning video. He was fighting the whole time but he was in shape to escape that hole too and that would play a big part in your decision to flight or fight. That's and individual thing.

In the video... at about 1:34 you can see how hard he pops up, I would say that the way he was holding the paddle on that that last dunk by the river gods is what popped him up with that much force. But hey I'm a rookie so who knows. Just don't drink the water. LOL.
 

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Haha Russ, I thought this was a new thread which left me wondering what you have been beatering down lately with a broken back and collar bone. Sorry none of this advice has proven effective to help you stay in your boat ;)
 
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