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Rich

Are their still any chances to get leftover permits?

At the GCNP login site it says I am still eligable for followup lotteries.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Miker,

There were about a dozen unclaimed winter dates after the lottery was run. It's likely that a few other dates awarded in the lottery will not ultimately be claimed. Those will be re-lotteried, if I understand things correctly.

That means you should get your profile current, check off the block saying you want to be considered for cancellations and unclaimed dates, and hope for the best.

I'll be meeting with Steve Sullivan from the GC River Office this weekend. If I can, I'll get some details on where things are headed now that the main lottery is over.

Have a good one.

Rich Phillips
VP, GCPBA
 

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I did check the box for consideration of leftover permits.

Am I still eligible for leftover dates other than my preferred dates?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hi,

As I understand the new system, you and others who checked that box are eligible to be re-drawn in another lottery. If your name is drawn, they will contact you and offer you a trip from the available dates remaining.

As I said, I may have a better handle on this after this weekend. I'll post here what I learn.

Have a good one.

Rich Phillips
VP, GCPBA
 

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I know a buddy of mine "threw back" an early March launch date. He never should have put in for that date, it was too soon for him (to coordinate that much time off) not to mention it is in the middle of ski season! Still, it hurt to throw it back in the pool. :(

But it is out there for y'all!
 

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Grand Cn question

Hi Rich,
Thanks for the gcpba website info. I have a general question for you. Can a private boater (non-TL), on private permits, float the Grand more than one trip a year under the new regulations?
Thanks, Kim
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hi Kim,

One trip a year starting in 2007 -- commercial or private -- makes no difference.

Rich
 

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Hi rich,
Thanks for all your help so far.
-I am sorry to say that I am completely disappointed in the new system. Feels like 2/3 of the people that got a permit were never on the waitlist or they have been down the river in the last five years.
-Feels like all the people that were formerly on the waitlist got screwwed!
-We have been waiting for so long to get, yet again, shafted!
-I know that a few people that had years of extra chances got a permit and I am happy for them. But what happens when 7000 people jump on to the lottery and the people that waited years get drowned out again even more. Maybe 1/20 of the people that are awarded permits that 7000 applicant year will be former waitlist participants.
-How are the leftovers from this lottery handled? Does all 2300 people left hanging get to try for the seven dates or so left?
-If I go on one of my friends trips down the grand next year does that mean all my extra chances will be voided? Maybe doing that is better than actually trying to get my own permit cause at this point I doubt that will ever happen.
Sorry to bitch, But there are so many unanswered questions and once those are answered new ones seem to just creep up.
Thanks for any insight, Johnny
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hi Johnny,

There's no doubt that moving to the new system has required a lot of compromise and readjustment. Both commercial and non-commercial boaters had to cede important points under the current plan. And so varying degrees of disapointment in the new system are inevitable. But private boaters now have more than double the number of launches available, and I think that for the private boating community as a whole, that is a tremendous improvement.

In putting this system together, the Park had to satisfy a large number of constituencies with widely varying interests and influence. Tough job. But it may be helpful for us to take the long view here -- beyond the doubled number of launches. Last month's lottery awarded less than 200 launches, with about 2,600 applicants. Once the five years pass (in which the residual transitional launches were awarded) a total of 503 launches will be lotteried -- greatly increasing the chance to get a trip.

Fact is, nobody really knows what the actual demand for trips will be after this all settles down. So it's just as possible that the long-run outcome may be that once current demand has stabilized, the odds will be even better then than now.

Leftovers and cancellations will be handled by secondary lottery drawings -- and possibly for very short cancellations -- a call-in system.

As I understand the system, when you go on a trip (either commercial or private), your chances are re-set to one for the next lottery.

To kind of summarize, there are a lot of moving parts to the new system, and it can be confusing. But I think that a doubling of private launches and a system that focuses on awarding real launches to real people who are really ready to do a trip in the coming year, is better than the old way of awarding a much smaller number of launches from a waiting list that no-one really believed represented actual demand.

Best to you.

Richp
 

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-I know I know. sorry if you thought any of that was directed at you. It is directed more generally at the increasing number of users for any system.
- I agree that the increase in awarded # of launch days per year is much better than it use to be.
-I know that it is hard to keep everone (private and commercial) happy to. I think as private boaters we still get shafted a little, but that is coming from someone who is not depending on people to "buy" into my trips so that I can feed my family. But I have of course always worked for people who had to compete in thier business and i know that it is important.
-I guess to me it just feels that the situation on the grand is more like a monopoly leaning heavily in the commercial sector. Kinda like our government does with the capital that runs this entire country, 98% of the money stays in the "top" 2% of the population. Most of the permits stay in the commercial sector. They benefit and we wait and wait. They hold the sway. And it seems that way because the number of users is so high. we get lost in the shuffle.
-On a river such as the Upper Animas, with much less users (less money) this problem doesn't exist.
-I just think that it is fare to allow the people that have waited for their turn on the river, and have never been down, to get their turn before someone else that went last year. Let the waitlist people pick and then once everybody goes then instigate a lottery.
-I am not really bitter about the situation. This is just a conversation that I find interesting. I would rather vioce these opinions than have them get lost in the deck of cards only to be played much later than now when it's to late. But maybe it already is.
-Thanks Rich. I actually really appreciate what you are doing. And I actually really appreciate the extremely hard work that I am sure the Park service put into this permit change. I also am sure that their are so many facits to this conversation and permit system that i have never even begun to think of.
-Please reply if anyone has something to say, johnny
 

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I just read my RRFW email that was sent to me today pertaining to a recent (march 06) lawsuit aginst the park service,

'"River Runners for Wilderness is seeking to protect what modest gains were made in the recent CRMP and move forward with real wilderness protection and equitable access,” noted Martin. “As many of the applicants to Grand Canyon’s recent lottery found out, changing from a waiting list to a lottery is not getting us any closer to resolving the wilderness degradation and access inequity issues for the park.”'

Johnny
 

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RRFW is just rocking the boat cause its all about the motors to them.

it was EASY to get a permit in decmber. I could get one every december wheras I could not in the old system. Just suck it up. The park has worked really hard to come up with this and they deserve a break. think about it, under the old system it would eventually take 35 years to get a permit and you would die before you got on the river. weighted lottery is the best solution to a tough problem.
 

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RRFW is just rocking the boat cause its all about the motors to them. Just go in the non motor season.

it was EASY to get a permit in december. I could get one every december whereas I could not in the old system. Just suck it up. The park has worked really hard to come up with this and they deserve a break. think about it, under the old system it would eventually take 35 years to get a permit and you would die before you got on the river. weighted lottery is the best solution to a tough problem.
 
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