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I have an opportunity to run the Grand twice in 2010 (as do most of you, what with all the follow-up lotteries and permit holders always looking to fill spots). I know that the new regs stipulate that we may only run the canyon once every calendar year. So I'm wondering two things:

- Has anyone out there run it twice in a year since the new permitting system was installed?

- I know the rangers check everyone's ID at Lee's. But what do they do with those IDs besides glance at the photo and the name and make sure you resemble that person and correspond with the participants listed on the trip's roster?

Any feedback would be much appreciated.
 

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TWO chances to run the canyon...man you must have some great friends :D

I hear they scan the ID's to make sure they are real and often ask for a second form of ID ;) (espically if the person is from NY)

Ha, give me a call when you get back into town...possibilities are flying around for winter rafting trips. Either way we should do some playing outside now that SCHOOL IS OVER. Have fun in NY
 

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go for it.. If you want to get fined and banned from the canyon.

oh and the feds just looked at your profile picture and know your name is Dan. good job.
 

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Hi,

I don't think the Feds have discovered databases yet, so that picture ID information you give them will likely never be cross-referenced.

And don't worry, the TL on that second trip won't care if you risk putting him or her at risk for a big fine and banning, by you trying to pirate through their permit.

Moreover, I'm virtually certain something like this doesn't give rise to reasonable suspicion (and certainly not probable cause) for the rangers to start probing into other aspects of the trip, some of which might involve questionable items, substances, or financial arrangements.

And of course, no-one who might resent you doing this, or have some grudge against you for some obscure reason, will snitch you off-- even if you're using an alternate ID.

It's virtually a no-risk proposition -- go for it!!!

Rich Phillips, with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek...
 

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I know that the new regs stipulate that we may only run the canyon once every calendar year.

...Any feedback would be much appreciated.
A) You're using a public forum (where you've got a photo of yourself posted and state your hometown as Fort Collins, CO) that is monitored by law enforcement personnel and thousands of boaters to ask advice whether you should knowingly cheat a Federal river permit system that's one of the most strict in the country.

B) The system you are publicly asking about cheating is one that some boaters have spent huge portions of their lives and large amounts of their personal resources getting into place. Alot of those folks are people who, under the old system, have the connections in the boating world to get hooked up with trips along with the ability to take two trips or more yearly. Those people, primarily in organizations like AW and GCPBA, traveled all across the country to attend meetings, spent large sums of their own money, and put the common good of the boating community ahead of their own interests because it resulted in greater access for more boaters.

C) Should you decide to scam the system, your actions have the potential for people who've spent enormous effort and money getting a GC trip together to be at risk of spending what's supposed to be their first night of a lifetime experience right back in the motel in Flagstaff facing a big fine and/or exclusion from being able to get on the river again.

D) You have the potential of being charged with fraud and prosecuted in Federal courts.

E) By committing to more than one of the trips, one of the Trip Leaders who has been generous enough to invite you along is busting their ass getting the trip together and wasting their trip-planning brain cells by saving a spot on their trip for a person that won't even be able to go when they could be extending the invitation to someone that is considerate of their situation and has integtrity.

So here's your feedback you asked for:

You're an idiot and you're also inconsiderate of others. If I were one of the TLs that offered you a spot on my permit, you'd get bounced quicker than you could say, "but I wasn't really planning to do it if people on Mountainbuzz said it was stupid!"
 

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Had surgery on Tuesday so all of my discretionary funds have been used to pay the deductible. Then last night I was trying to cook the kids dinner with one hand and poured a pot of water on the stove controls and blew out the cook top in our kitchen. Anyway, I was thinking that bank robbery might be a good way to supplement the Christmas fund for the kids. Anyone have any ideas how not to get caught?
 

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Ranger's at the Ferry know about the buzz, you better proceed assuming that they just read it. And, they do keep very good records down there. They know this is a possibility.
 

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How many whiny hall monitors does it take to keep a message board going? The man wants to bend the rules to see the canyon twice. Big deal.

Here's some info for the feds about me.

I NEVER pay for camping. I don't pay the permit fee on the Ark. I've poached multiple sections of river. And that's just the beginning... Come and get me!

To answer your question, my experience is that you can change passengers pretty late in the process and they'll just be looking at your ID. Get a new license with a different address and you would probably be fine. I wish my name was John Smith and I was from California....

P.S. Just some friendly flaming. I like you guys, but I wouldn't let any of you see me running in the halls....
 

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P.S. Just some friendly flaming. I like you guys, but I wouldn't let any of you see me running in the halls....
I'll flame: go for it, while you're at it, why not just poop on shore (from the potty thread) and take at least one obnoxious republican and democrat with you....OK- start the white man fire....wait that's not PC.... more flaming !

The Buzz in the off season, what could be more fun!
 

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The Buzz reveals the source of all the crowds, garbage, noise and bad behavior at GC...glad to be a member of this outstanding ws...;+). I am having happy dreams about my Dec. 31 launch. I could legally boat through taking my 25 day max, turn around and do it again on another cancellation for a total of 49 days in one year, on the river in the GC. A January GC trip could turn into an annual habit.
 

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I could legally boat through taking my 25 day max, turn around and do it again on another cancellation for a total of 49 days in one year, on the river in the GC. A January GC trip could turn into an annual habit.
Damn, I think that is everyone's dream as they are taking off (heading back up to Lee's). You should do it!
 

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Whitewaterjunkie: Please keep in mind that your attorney is not licensed to appear in the state courts of Arizona or in Arizona Federal District Courts.

Everyone: This is a great way to have the Park Service confiscate your boat, trailer and all your gear, many of you might not want the Feds introducing your dry box and all your gear to a drug dog! That could lead to very serious charges. Say Hi to Bernie Madoff while you're in there.
 

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This thread is off base.

More of a philosophical discussion on the "Rules" and getting caught....this is the game of life....follow the rules or risk getting caught...and then risk the consequences...almost not worth discussing.

The system is clearly defined...and even if folks don't agree...we all follow the rules for the most part. I love the Grand, about to go my third time in 3 years...all legal, and for the most part, would love to keep going year after year. At certain points of the trip you never want to leave...but usually by pumpkin, I am ready to be back with my wife and be away from all these folks that really are great friends...and by the time I get to the take out, quickly forgetting all the low points, relishing the high points....and thinking about the next trip...ON ANOTHER RIVER or IN ANOTHER CANYON.

There is so much out there, but if someone wants to go down the Grand 2x in one year, the desire is not wrong and the action is only wrong because of the rules. Rules that are different on other rivers. Folks that do the MF 4x in a year seem to get no shit. Still taking up space others could use, but it is not against the rules. This comes out clearly in those who posted on this thread that clearly have invested much in these rules and their efforts to make this resource open to more people, even at their expense (multiple trips for those who are "in").

Back to getting caught, because everyone breaks the rules in some way or another, even if not on the Grand. Not posting your original thread to begin with would have been the best way not to get caught. That being said, chances are you be caught at this point.

Two last points.

(1) I know former River check in rangers, from this very region, who do exactly what the original poster described, over and over. These were the police, now breaking the law...even did so while the were rangers.

(2) I hope that none of the folks that let in on the original poster ever break any rules, especially important ones. For example if one were to speed on the public roadways and then get on this board and let in on this guy for doing something 1000x less dangerous or hurtful to his fellow citizens would be very hypocritical.

Still I advise you not to do it.

(1) follow the rules...

or

(2) change the rules....or because this is often unrealistic

(3) be very vocal about your discontent with the rules so other folks will help you with (2) and it just might happen.

Opinions Yo.
 

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I still say get a fake ID and run the shit twice a year. Don't let these cop hugging boyscouts convince you otherwise. F--- the police!
 
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