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Discussion Starter #1
This season I noticed I was losing gear space under my seat cause I had my thwart inflated. As well, I noticed that when paddling hard into a rapid I was standing to power forward. My thoughts are to put a nrs flip seat on top of a cooler (allowing more space for beer). I am also hoping that the higher Center of gravity will be a more powerful position to be rowing from, thus making paddling in big water more solid. Any pros or cons to the flip seat for paddling big water? I have a low back nrs seat and I just found that I always wanted to be standing while on the oars.
 

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I have been using a flip seat bracket on my boats for years and like you I use low back seat. Mine sits on a dry box. I have the bracket sold by Clavey as I feel it is a more elegant solution. The NRS bracket is more readily available and can be tuned for height unlike the Clavey model. You may want to look at your rowing geometry if you feel the need to stand. Raising your seat height may require higher oar towers as well. I find the combination of seat and flip bracket is stable in big water and makes getting in the dry box or cooler easy.
 

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This topic get visited often under various considerations.

To each their own:) Na, I won't be that lame. But I'm going skiing so I'll be brief now.

Don't run out and buy a taller tower yet. Part of that power you feel when standing is often the result of a steeper angle of entry resulting in your blade being deeper in the water rather than lily dipping on the surface. You might even consider keeping your current towers but cutting them lower.

However, I have a very tall seating position but when driving into a big one my last act of defiance is a standing push like you really mean it.
 

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Towers are modular. Borrow a set from a friend before you plunk down cash.



I don't like flip seats...when I'm day-tripping, I like my seat on the bars and to stay low. When I'm doing multidays, I LOVE to have my full-width PVC pad on my drybox.
 

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Being higher in big water is WAY more scary. there is nothing from bucking you out of the boat,. I got bukced twice on a big water (45K) trip, and lowered my seat immediately after,
 

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Being higher in big water is WAY more scary. there is nothing from bucking you out of the boat,. I got bukced twice on a big water (45K) trip, and lowered my seat immediately after,

Amen, toss the seat and sit on your cooler or drybox with a pad. I like to be as low as possible, the lower you are the less chance of getting tossed out of the boat.
 

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Looks like I am in the minority on this one. I've got a flip seat and love it.
Nothing wrong with a seat, if that's your thing, but if the seat sets you up and raises the center of gravity then you have a damn good chance of being thrown out of the boat. I've seen so many people, especially in those DRE seats that don't cut them down, they're adjusting their oar towers and everything to compensate for the seats that stick them way up in the air.
 

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I love my flip seat. I used to have my seat mounted onto my dry box but I really didn't like that because I couldn't open my dry box when my boat was loaded, and it also made the dry box lid way too heavy. With the flip seat I sit only 3/4" higher than I did before and I can easily access my dry box if I need to.
 

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Looks like I am in the minority on this one. I've got a flip seat and love it.
I'm with you IDriverRunner. I prefer my flip seat. Most of these guys are old school and don't know and have likely never experienced the pleasures of a "seat". Flip seats can be rigged low or they can be a bit higher or very high. I prefer the view from a bit higher.

These guys tend to be totally and exclusively dialed into only one perspective, a box to sit on under their ass. Be it a dry box or a cooler. If you prefer, you can actually rig a flip seat to have a rowing position lower than that required by the top of a high capacity dry box or cooler in excess of 200 quarts. Bottom line, they are anti-seat, old school and whinners concerning other ideas.

The physics concerning lower is better is perhaps true but slimming around on a flat surface lacking proper positioning is in my opinion inexperienced with regard to ever having experienced other options. Let me repeat this, many of that opinion have likely never sat on a seat.

That said, to each their own. I prefer the comfort of a seat any day.

:)
 

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I'd like to sit down and drink a beer with this guy MNichols to better understand his personal issues.

He seems to badmouth DRE yet praise Greg Yeager and Dennis Schell. They are one and the same with regard to modular Hollander fitting frames. You can't be an ass hole regarding one without being a total asshole regarding both.

Not only that, Mr MNichols calls them DRE seats without ever recognizing that that frame is made by perhaps a half dozen frame fabricators and sold very successfully coast to coast.

I'd like to know truly what Mr MNichols problem is. He is finally recognizing that flip seat height and tower heights are adjustable, be they DRE, AAA, or several other fabricators. He never seemed to recognize this before.
 

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My flip seat bracket sits flush on the top of my dry box, so I sit about 2 1/2 inches above the top of the box. Not much different than sitting on a pad. I find the low back and contour of the seat helps keep me in position when taking side hits in big water. An added plus is I am not sitting on a wet pad puddling water.
When I row a boat sitting on a box or pad I notice a difference in stability. It's all about what works for you. Experiment a bit and find a rowing position and oar geometry that works for you. It is a trial and error process and everyone has different body size, strength, and physical limitations.

But what do I know I use pins and clips and drain my cooler.

I don't think you will see too many people that run the North Fork of the Payette sitting on a box and using open locks and that is about as big as it gets.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I love my seat. My only thought is that when I sit down in a rapid I feel a slight lack of power, I figured raise my seat on top of a cooler ( maybe a few inches) and ideally have more aggressive geometry as well as a better viewpoint of the rapid, it’s a big price to convert but I’m just wondering if it’s worth it
 

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I'm with you IDriverRunner. I prefer my flip seat. Most of these guys are old school and don't know and have likely never experienced the pleasures of a "seat". Flip seats can be rigged low or they can be a bit higher or very high. I prefer the view from a bit higher.

These guys tend to be totally and exclusively dialed into only one perspective, a box to sit on under their ass. Be it a dry box or a cooler. If you prefer, you can actually rig a flip seat to have a rowing position lower than that required by the top of a high capacity dry box or cooler in excess of 200 quarts. Bottom line, they are anti-seat, old school and whinners concerning other ideas.

The physics concerning lower is better is perhaps true but slimming around on a flat surface lacking proper positioning is in my opinion inexperienced with regard to ever having experienced other options. Let me repeat this, many of that opinion have likely never sat on a seat.

That said, to each their own. I prefer the comfort of a seat any day.

:)
Are you kidding me?

You spent an entire thread trying to convince all of us that a high back seat was the ONLY way to go when basically everyone else was being reasonable and stating their preference and why. I can't say with 100% certainty, but I'm pretty sure that those of us that prefer a padded cooler have tried seats and decided it wasn't for them.

But please...go on and keep making it personal.

As for the original post... I think its completely reasonable to replace a thwart with a cooler or dry box. There is a reason why thwarts are removable.

You obviously have options ranging from just sticking a pad on to of the cooler or drybox and sitting on that, to fabricating a seat mount that sits on the cooler (a buddy of mine does this...he just made a playwood board that with an NRS raft seat bolted to it), to the NRS flip seat that still uses a tractor seat, to the fabricated seats that are primarily attributed to DownRiver frames. Each have their pluses and minuses...so you just have to maybe try a few options.

One downside to the DRE style is that you have to order it in a specific spread between the legs front to back since it sits on the raft frame. This means if you get a different cooler or want to change the raft frame for any reason, you have to buy a new seat (or cut the existing one up and weld it back together). Not a deal breaker...but something to keep in mind.

Already discussed are the different reasons you may or may not want a seat that raises you up off the frame so I'll leave it there.

I think seats have their place...but I'm not a fan of the high back ones, especially the super rigid and high backed DRE style ones since they don't allow you a full range of movement. I have a hard time getting a real power stroke in if I can't lean back past a upright sitting position.

As has been said, the seat position isn't everything. Oar tower heights, how wide the oars locks are apart, how far in front of you the oar tower is, your relation to center of the boat, the length of your oars, and many other factors come into play and personal preference plays a huge role in it.

I'd say if you really don't feel like you get a power stroke sitting on an NRS lowback seat mounted to the frame...then its probably more to do with oar tower placement and height then it is to do with your seat.

Seats certainly are an option, but so is sitting on a padded cooler. However, just because some guys running class V in small floorless creek cats use a seat (one of the scenarios that seems like the right place for one), doesn't mean its the only answer for every setup and person out there.

But yeah...get rid of that thwart and gain yourself some space for gear for sure.
 

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I love my seat. My only thought is that when I sit down in a rapid I feel a slight lack of power, I figured raise my seat on top of a cooler ( maybe a few inches) and ideally have more aggressive geometry as well as a better viewpoint of the rapid, it’s a big price to convert but I’m just wondering if it’s worth it
You can raise your seat pretty easily with a couple of plywood shims and some longer bolts. I'd also consider shortening your oar towers or moving them closer or further away.

Speaking from experience... it would take quite a bit of a rise in height to make a significant difference as far as viewing the river better. I've used everything from a low slung creek Cat to a big Grand Canyon sized raft rig and found standing up and/or standing on a cooler to be necessary when "boat scouting" a rapid.
 

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Thanks for the scolding EM. I deserved it. I probably deserve a good scolding from MNichols also.

But I have changed my mind in that I'm now accepting the fact that there can be personal choice and preference(and perhaps a necessity). Much easier to just say personal choice than to think that I can or should try to change someones opinion.

One of the biggest reasons people sit on boxes is necessity, there is almost no where else to put the box be it a cooler or dry box. They are making the best of the storage space they have and allow quick access because it is not buried by gear. I just prefer to put quick access items in captain's boxes/bags and the dry box shore side where I can do quick access to kitchen and camping items. This is possible with a cataraft but please don't consider that a statement of catarafts are better than rafts.

People say they think negatively when they see seats. When I see a person sitting on a box I think of a child sitting in a little red wagon, i.e. don't start off to fast cause he'll roll out the back or turn to sharply or he'll tumble out the side:)
 

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My opinion is that seats are a personal preference. Some people love 'em, some don't. If they really keep you in the boat better in bigwater, then why don't outfitters on Cherry Creek, Forks of the Kern, high Water MFS, Selway, Colorado (Canyon) use them? I'm not questioning folks' feeling of security having a seat...just wondering why outfitters that run big sh!t on a regular basis don't run seats. Because it is a preference. It's fine...If you like a seat, use one. If you don't, don't. To each their own. There are dozens of other boat set-up preferences that folks' camp up in and defend to the death.

My preference is to sit on a pad on my cooler. I like it because I can adjust my position as conditions change. I can move forward to the edge of my seat for big pushes or lounge back in the mellow stuff. I can slide over and let my kid sit next to me row the other oar. And in the steep stuff, I can lean way back/stand up when going over the drop without something jamming me in my back.
 

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I'd like to sit down and drink a beer with this guy MNichols to better understand his personal issues.

He seems to badmouth DRE yet praise Greg Yeager and Dennis Schell. They are one and the same with regard to modular Hollander fitting frames. You can't be an ass hole regarding one without being a total asshole regarding both.

Not only that, Mr MNichols calls them DRE seats without ever recognizing that that frame is made by perhaps a half dozen frame fabricators and sold very successfully coast to coast.

I'd like to know truly what Mr MNichols problem is. He is finally recognizing that flip seat height and tower heights are adjustable, be they DRE, AAA, or several other fabricators. He never seemed to recognize this before.

I wrote a few responses to this, and deleted every one.

IN each and every thread you post on, you have absolutely nothing positive to add, it's all about slamming someone or something that doesn't agree with you, or you don't agree with, and back each of your statements with your opinion.

Zero fact, no data, nothing other than your opinion.

I and others that are PMing me, are quite tired of it. In the future, I'd appreciate if you'd leave me out of your childish diatribes, as your opinion was neither solicited nor welcome.

The chances of me sitting down and having a beer with you after being the subject of your posts, well let's just say He*l has a greater chance of freezing over first... You sir have succeeded in making an enemy out of me, took you a while, but if that was your goal, well done!!!
 

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Are you kidding me?

One downside to the DRE style is that you have to order it in a specific spread between the legs front to back since it sits on the raft frame. This means if you get a different cooler or want to change the raft frame for any reason, you have to buy a new seat (or cut the existing one up and weld it back together). Not a deal breaker...but something to keep in mind.
I really like some aspects of this style of chair, the mesh to let your backside dry out being a big one. I struggle with the width, though. I am a bit of a lummox, and the side bars are well inside the width of my hips. I could only row my buddy's setup for an hour or so before everything really started to ache. I wish someone would make a wider version.
 
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