Mountain Buzz banner
1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yep, am a traditioonal ribbed boat guy. More cause that's what I learned from Brad Dimock than anything else.. My big boat, Bears Ears was made that way, and I couldn't find any fault with it. Bitttersweet that she's gone now, but she was simply too big for my tired old ass to row. I think traditional Briggs designs are stronger at the end of the day, by what percentage is debatable, like the thought that should it need repairs, you can span the plywood between bows, as opposed to trying to scarf into a sheet with no real support. Have nothing against a stitch and glue boat, I own one and damn near just bought one that a friend built, but were I to embark on a new build, it's a 90% chance it'd be a traditional ribbed Briggs design.
imho theglass is stiff enough to hold a screw.
It all comes down to your preferred maintenance regimen.

and “boat soup” does smell lovely.
I love boat soup, and especially the use if it negating the need to sand everything that's varnished / epoxy every couple years and recoat.

The glass may be stiff enough to hold s screw, but just barely if at all. It'd be interesting to see just what it would hold vs cedar.. I'm thinking it'd not be much of a contest, not to mention getting one out for another repair..
I mean glass/wood/glass holding a screw, not a single layer of glass. the wood holds the screw, the glass keeps the wood from splitting. And could always back up a screw with a scrap block the same you'd do on a ribbed boat if the hole location didn't land neatly between ribs.

And wasn't implying the screw would be glued in with epoxy...but if you do glue in a screw, heat it with a soldering iron and it will soften the epoxy enough to back it right out.
Chine logs/chine bumpers would be an interesting sidebar discussion.

Everywhere else you can sustain damage "you never know" so you may as well be prepared to be flexible and make a repair.
But EVERYBODY takes chine dings. A rubber bumper on the outside prevents the minor stuff...but doesn't do anything for a big rock strike.

A 500# boat with 1000# of stuff and 800# of people is going to hit anything hard...you might glance off the side or bottom, but your chine is going to crunch.

Thinking out loud here..I wonder if a burly ash chine log would be a good idea...similar rationale as ash for gunnels.
Even if I were to build a stitch and glue boat, I think I would absolutely find a way to put chine logs in, Even if it meant running some ribs across the width of the boat to support them.

Edit. All of the damage I have taken with wooden boats, and my aluminum one for that matter, was in the chine area.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
If chine logs are that important, would it be a good consideration to build them out of something really burly like ash (even with the weight penalty) rather than port orford cedar?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,115 Posts
That certainly a thought, I hadn't considered it. I believe Brad makes his out of ash, as well as the gunnels, and if he's doing that, there must certainly be a reason...
 
  • Like
Reactions: MT4Runner

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
His doryaks are 100# heavier and a foot shorter than my mini dory...so that weight has to come from somewhere!! And wood itself is way heavier than layers of glass.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,115 Posts
And way stronger than glass, just saying....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,115 Posts
One glasses the floor to seal it more than anything, and why not half inch everywhere? Ask Mike g, wild thing was built out of half, and 3/4 in plywood. Weighed in close to 900 lb lol One reason he now owns wild child, and not wild thing lol
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,115 Posts
This is why I glass everything.

After seeing 50 year old Makaha with thin glass on some sections of the deck and no cracking or checking in those areas, I am convinced by the long-term longevity of glassed wood
50 year old Makaha in a thin glass sounds like a fine cocktail 😆😂
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
262 Posts
Here's an interesting comparison on strengths of different wood species, with the weights of the wood included.


Spoiler alert: Just like Clint said in Pale Rider: "There's nothin like a nice piece of hickory"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Here's an interesting comparison on strengths of different wood species, with the weights of the wood included.

Spoiler alert: Just like Clint said in Pale Rider: "There's nothin like a nice piece of hickory"
That's absolutely fascinating. It would also have been interesting if he had measured the deflection at breakage. I noticed the Red Oak bent a LOT before ultimate failure and continued to take a load as it bent and bent and bent and bent. Maple (as expected) is hard but brittle and when it failed, it went with a BANG!
IMHO the white oak and the ash weren't representative of those species. Did you notice they both had pretty bad grain runout? They broke diagonally. If they were straight-grained, they should have been there with/above the red oak. The hickory was beautifully straight-grained (and also plain-sawn).

I appreciate that he took the time to make his pieces identical, weighed and measured them, and even gave a cost comparison. Super cool when "regular" people get curious and do experiments. In a lab setting, one might have used more pieces of each species to minimize variation in individual boards.

As I noted in the other thread (quote below) grain runout is your enemy, even more than species selection....and for this reason, laminating wood if you can't find perfectly straight wood will help to minimize the weak spots where grain crosses the board.

You DO want straight-grained wood. Having woodgrain cross the entire member of a rib or an oar means you have a very very weak spot. Strain and cracks follow the grain. Tight knots in an otherwise straight-grained board are better than perfectly clear wood with grain that crosses the board on a close diagonal.
...
Again, wood is your heaviest boat component, so choose wisely.
Wanna go down another rabbit-hole? That guy is building wagons. Original wagons wouldn't have had wood from the lumberyard downtown; the wagon builder probably cut his own trees or hired someone else to cut and haul them. And then they didn't have a mill or a table saw, and the wood would have been split with sledges and wedges..and then a froe. And...

..can you see where I'm going with this? ... the eveners would have been made with wood split along the grain and there would have been zero grain runout...so they could have been a smaller/lighter section for the same strength or a much much stronger part for the same size as a sawn part. And back to the hickory...it weighed 44% more than the ash. Would a piece of ash the same weight but a larger dimension have been stronger or as strong as the hickory? Quite possibly.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
I remodeled my home extensively with hickory - floors, stairs, shelves, railings, etc. It is beautiful, but it is the most splintery wood I have ever worked with. I am constantly glueing down large splinters that seem to pop out for no reason. As much as I love the look, I wouldn't use it again cosmetically and I would never use it for something like a boat.

I'm loving these conversations. I'm hoping to start building a dory before long, and reading these keeps me going trying to convince my wife to let me use half the garage for a year.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,035 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Yep, am a traditioonal ribbed boat guy. More cause that's what I learned from Brad Dimock than anything else.. My big boat, Bears Ears was made that way, and I couldn't find any fault with it. Bitttersweet that she's gone now, but she was simply too big for my tired old ass to row. I think traditional Briggs designs are stronger at the end of the day, by what percentage is debatable, like the thought that should it need repairs, you can span the plywood between bows, as opposed to trying to scarf into a sheet with no real support. Have nothing against a stitch and glue boat, I own one and damn near just bought one that a friend built, but were I to embark on a new build, it's a 90% chance it'd be a traditional ribbed Briggs design.
What type of hull material?

Both wood construction methods have pros and cons. Between ply on frame and S&G, both have their devotees, and they're both right. No matter what, boats need care and maintenance, and you need to take care of them....and either will last decades with some TLC and you will probably not be the final owner of either boat. I'm a S&G guy, but I'll honestly tell you: aluminum or foam core arguably have the lowest maintenance of all!

Stitch and Glue
I built wooden sea kayaks a LONG time ago, so was quickly drawn to S&G as it was a method I was most familiar with. I have no regrets for my decision. With my prior experience, I had my boat done in 7 months (9 months elapsed, but skipped May/June during peak runoff to go kayaking/rafting). It was a very rewarding experience, and I plan to build more.
I ruminated on this a bit more over the past week. No matter what, having a dory is a passion thing. I can think of few to no people who get into whitewater with a dory as their first boat (drifters maybe). You do this because you're looking for something more from your experience on the river.

So build the boat that makes YOUR heart sing. You'll spend hundreds of hours in the shop building her and hopefully hundreds of hours lovingly shepherding her down the river and avoiding rocks. She should first and foremost be pretty to you and built however your means and skills allow. She's YOUR boat.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,115 Posts
I ruminated on this a bit more over the past week. No matter what, having a dory is a passion thing. You'll spend hundreds of hours in the shop building her and hopefully hundreds of hours lovingly shepherding her down the river and avoiding rocks.
The whole avoiding rocks thing is what sucks lol but it does sharpen your scarfing skills at the end of the day lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: MT4Runner

·
Registered
Joined
·
262 Posts
Resilience, toughness, ability to take a shock-load would be an important factor. I suspect hickory is pretty good. Maple very poor. Ash pretty good.
Interesting- listening to baseball radio announcers discussing this. It's been proven that maple bats don't perform any better than ash bats, but maple does explode when broken, ash GENERALLY does not. Maple bats only gained favour after Barry Bonds(and his steroids) set the home run record using maple bats.

I've had the same experience with hickory splintering that atg200 speaks of(although I've never worked with wood more prone to long, awful splinters than CVG Doug fir). It would be interesting to find out if air drying vs kiln drying would make a difference....

Also, would one want to consider rot resistance? Or is the plywood going to become mush long before the frame?

I wonder how black locust would do in these tests?
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top