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Discussion Starter #1
So I cracked my Nomad 8.5 on the paddle in to bailey last weekend. Bummer. I had noticed accelerated wear on the hull under the leading edge of the seat. Looks like when scraping or boofing over rocks, the plastic flexes a bit and ends up contacting the seat edge and getting worn down quicker than the rest of the boat. The crack started right where this wear happens after I hit a rock. I tallied up the days on the water and I got 42 days out of the boat. Most of the paddling was on the standard colorado IV-V- rocky creeks. Yes, I boofed like hell and paddled in low water conditions, but thats part of the game.

My question is, now that I am looking for a new boat, I've got durability in mind. I really liked the nomad hull shape, and as a bigger paddler 190-200 lbs, the bigger nomad was great for me. I've seen a lot of Jefe's and Jackson boats on the water, and it seemed like personal preference and that they all perform well. Any comments on durability etc. I don't like the thought about laying out the cash for a new creek boat that often, but I don't want to pass up every sweet rock boof I see to try and protect my boat either.

The dagger customer service guy said that since I cracked it on a rock it would be considered "boat abuse" and not covered under warranty. I guess a lot of the paddling in colorado if you want to paddle any month other than june could be considered boat abuse, but damn its fun!

I'm mourning the loss of my trusty Nomad that served me so well and trying to plan for next season.
 

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boat

dsp - i think your boat will last longer if you stay away from the cleer creek runs under 100, discontinue your trend of getting in 4 times as much boating as the rest of us, and quit boofing every exposed rock you see.

however, i think the new hot trend next year will be 6 year old saltos - i think that faded red is also the color of choice. - i might have one in stock for the humble price of 800$.

deal?

if not - i think that jackson is coming out with a steel reinforced concrete creeker just for you.
 

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What up Ian,

Sucks about your boat buddy! I have heard this problem mentioned before. My Nomad, although not as "used" as yours is getting a little soft right under the leading edge of the seat as well. I had heard that putting some minicell foam right under the leading edge of the seat might help. Does anyone else have any recommendations about this. Or would it "bulge" out the area and just make the area more prone to impact.

A month ago or so I saw that some folks, I think 3 rivers paddle shop up by Crested Butte where selling new nomads super cheap. So you might consider that option. That Jefe looks like a damn good boat too!

Good luck bro!

Mike
 

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I concur that they all break in colorado. I have seen broken daggers, liquid logics, jacksons, eskimos, bliss sticks, wave sports, you name it. We have creeks that are tough on boats.

I am not too excited to hear the response that you got regarding warranty, though. I have respect for team D, and Hobie, etc., but only getting a season out of a creeker isn't great. My experience with liquid logic is that they are reasonable about helping paddlers get a replacement for a reduced cost, seems that w/ a lightly used creeker most companies should do the same.

If durabiltiy is key for you, you might want to look into the prijon hercules. Prijon hasn't had the splitting problems of eskimo and uses the blow-molded htp plastic that has (or used to have) a five year gaurantee. I haven't paddled that boat, but if you can stand having a flat bottom creeker most reviews I have seen are positive.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
To be fair to the dagger folks, the warranty department guy that CKS contacted was nice and prompt in his response. I sent in pics and, yes I hit rocks with the boat, judging by the scratches on the boat, lots of them. I wouldn't say that the boat has seen "light use", just not that many days on the water. I'm not suprised that it won't be covered by warranty, and won't hold it against dagger.

I am bummed that the boat seemed to weaken around the seat though, and I will definitely foam out my next creeker on that spot to prevent it.

I also did go for every boof I saw this season, and I guess the equation is double the boofs, half the boat life. So I'm paying for the fun I had! What a great season though.

I do have a vision of creekers made out of bomber materials that you can beat to hell and not break. The prijon plastic has a good rep, but the hercules seems more like a flat-hulled hybrid river runner more that a creeker.
 

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yeah, can't say what the hercules paddles like. the reveiws on boatertalk look pretty good though. people are definitely running the sh*t in them, and if you look at the pics of the hull on playak.com you will see that there are some displacement and some planing characteristics. you can always give wildwasser up in boulder a call and set up a free (i think) demo. i don't have any interest in the company or anything, you just got me thinking about the same thing and i am intrigued by the prijon.
 

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I've thought about this as a potential business model- in fact, Some european companies already do this with some durable goods (washing machines, etc). Here's the model:

You "lease" your creeker at a premium price (let's say, $1200). For a period of three years, any non-warranty damage is covered by the lease- you can have any part (hull, seat, etc) replaced by the manufacturer at cost if the damage isn't covered under the warranty. So if you crack your hull every year, you can get a new hull from Dagger for a few hundred dollars plus shipping. At the end of the lease period, you have a "trade-in" window for a newer model at a pre-set trade in value (let's say $350). If you trade it in earlier, the trade-in value is a little more -manufactuers canwork with dealers on this so the used boats can be sold at a profit. You get the newest model creeker with a brand-new lease coverage.

Benefits to the User:
* You have a guaranty on workmanship, plus a easy way to upkeep the boat you're used to.
* If you're a Colorado mank master or rock-splatting fool, you can charge with impunity- a mid-season expense of a new hull at cost is easier to take than $900+
* You can recycle the old boat

Benefits to the Manufacturer:
* They have the ability to keep a customer for life- increased brand loyalties
* Those brand loyalties lead to better retail relationships
* Increased administrative costs are covered in the original boat costs.
* They reduce the customer service wrangling over folks that abuse their equipment
*They can recycle the old boat

It would pretty east to run a pricing analysis on this model, based on sales, returns, warranties, and inventory costs. What are your thoughts?


This company 'closes the loop' with carpet- for those interested, check this out: http://www.fastcompany.com/online/14/sustaing.html
 

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I am kind of surprised to hear that your nomad kicked the bucket so soon. My old CFS took a beating never broke (even if it was a fat pig of a boat). Seems like the dagger plastic flexes alot but does not break easily.

I second the prijon idea. I am really impressed by their plastic. My very used Embudo still paddles great and its the lightest creek boat I have ever used. I think the Hercules is a bit more planing hull than the the embudo, but the Embudo definitely handles better on low volume creeks than you would think by looking at it. I think the hercules might be similar. The Hercules is a bit bigger than the Embudo, but you are a bit bigger than me. I'd try to demo one if I was you. Remember, when you think a creek boat might be too long and pointy, people used to run these creeks in 11 foot long boats.

Josh
 

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I know you're just waiting for someone to tell you to get the Jefe, so just get it over with and buy one. It's all about the autopilot. Aren't they putting out a big boy boat this year?

Of course Jackson has that cross-link plastic, and what about the new Wavesport? Yes, we all know you're secretly pleased about this boat cracking.

I know some people have high expectations for this post, so let me finish with a thought from Socrates: "Get not your friends by bare compliments, but by giving them sensible tokens of your love." By this, I think he means you should take my old boat and buy me a new one.
 

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O.k, I will chime in. Here is the letter sent to DSP in regards to his boat from our service dept.:


Ian,
I am sorry to hear about your boat issues, but I do believe that we will have some problems getting this to pass as a warranty due to the fact you did hit a rock to cause this crack. As I told Eric, if you really feel that the boat is under spec in any way, or the crack was directly related to the seat wear we will need to cut out the serial number and the area that is damaged and send it back in for our plastic engineer to test for manufacturing defects. If this boat is defective (thin, under cooked, or over cooked) we will issue an RA. We are trying to provide you an option here instead of just denying the claim, but if we do not find any issues with the plastic then it will be considered abuse due to the rock hit and will not be covered and you will be without a boat. If you are unsure if this boat is truly defective it will be in your best interest to repair the boat on your own so you still have something to paddle. I will be happy to send you a welding repair kit if you would like me to, but please go through the dealer if you plan on sending the cut outs back in, we are authorized to work only with the dealers on warranty claims or inspections.



I too have broken boats from hitting stuff. It is part of the creek game. From what I read in this letter Dagger did try to figure it out and help him. I broke a CFS on OBJ years back (pre Dagger employment) sure the boat was worn because I had paddled it a bunch creeking that year but I knew I hit something hard. So, I threw it away and ordered another one. Creek boats break. The get punished and break. But to balme it on seat wear is tough to swallow as well. I paddled the same Nomad for three seasons and the hull is worn to bits now but it is still bomber and ready for another trip. If it took a big on the hull it very well could break.
Sorry but I have to answer to this now as I think our customer service is doing a good job. And as for the Nomad, it is doing a great job. 1st and 2nd at the Green race, new race record in the short boat, first short boat to break the 5 minute mark. It won the fish creek race, homestake race, and Burnt ranch this summer in addition to countless first Ds. Yeah dog. That boat is insane and tough to find one better.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Not trying to dis Dagger or the Nomad, Hobie. As I noted above, the customer service from dagger was courteous and prompt and Hobie responded to my request immediately. Thanks! Also I think that the boat kicks ass. I loved my nomad, and I think it was a great boat to push my personal limits in this year.

As for the seat wear, I'm not blaming, just stating what I saw on my boat. The hull showed obvious signs of wear in that one spot under the seat, and thats exactly where it cracked. It seems to me that the flex of the hull hits the seat and that causes accelerated wear, and I'm not the only one who has experienced it. Point loading the plastic in that spot causes more stress and so its the likely spot to break. I'd consider the hull / seat issue a potential room for design improvement for boat longevity for Dagger, and a learning experience for me.

My original question was, are other boats more durable than this, and the answer seems to be no, except from Prijon, which has the different plastic. Thanks for the feedback. Now I just have to figure out how to fit a creekboat under a christmas tree!
 

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hobie said:
O.k, I will chime in. . . . So, I threw it away and ordered another one. Creek boats break. The get punished and break.
Hey Hobie, now that we have you on the line for a moment I wanted to ask a related question. By the way, it sounds like the customer service is doing what it can, but as I alluded to above I have had excellent service similar to Flaco's "leasing option" with a creek boat from another company.

Anyway, here is my question, based on your qoute above. How can CO paddlers recycle their broken boats? I wish that there was an option such as having a specified collection date at a local shop or something where all the cracked/unusable boats that people want to recycle could be gathered and sent to a place to get recycled.

I know Liquid Logic down in North Carolina will take old boats and recycle them for you, but it doesn't seem to be an option out West. You can only have so many boats as flower planters... and I have two cracked hulls in the garage that need to be reincarnated as someone's spatula or something. over and out.
 

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Although I have never paddled the hercules, everyone I have talked to about it says it rages. I have also talked to the prijon rep recently and he said they haven't really had any problems with them breaking. I would recommend trying one out. Good luck.

P.S. Aren't rocks an integral part of creek boating? I broke my Salto on a rock and they sent me a brand new one, no questions asked! hmmm... :?
 

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Hey Ian,
I would keep the cracked boat and fix it so you have a spare when you break your next one. I cracked my boat a few years back and it was not fixable so I was out of a creek boat in the height of the season.
If you don't weld the crack then just use some of that sticky roofing tape that is like a sheet of tar with metal foil on the back side. Heat up everything with a heat gun or a hair dryer when you are working with it. Glue a foam pad between the patch and your seat or the seat will tear up the patch within 5 minutes of creeking. Don't forget to drill holes at the ends of the crack so it doesn't propagate. I fixed my cracked Embudo like this (yes, I broke an Embudo) and it works great. Now I have a spare for 100 cfs Bear Creek next April.
 

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My original question was, are other boats more durable than this, and the answer seems to be no, except from Prijon, which has the different plastic. Thanks for the feedback. Now I just have to figure out how to fit a creekboat under a christmas tree!
Doesn't anyone listen to me? Jackson boats are supposed to be crosslink, and I think I read somewhere the new Wavesports were perhaps going to use crosslink plastic as well. I don't know jack about manufacturing plastic, but it seems to be generally agreed upon by the experts that crosslink plastic is tougher than linear for boating applications. It's disadvantage seems to be that once they break they're hard to repair, and is less environmentally friendly.

Undoubtedly all boats differ in their durability and failure points. It's hard to quantify that though. I'd bet the people that know best are the retailers that handle the warranties.

As for the Dagger warranties, I don't see how you can call this failure a warranty issue. In fact, I've always been surprised how readily some companies offer free replacements and deep discounts on replacements for boats that were probably just broken through hard use. However, it's a nice policy given that nobody wants to dump 1k on a boat and have to replace it the next year. I'm sure Dagger being a large company needs to mandate a specific policy and enforce it uniformly, whereas other smaller companies may have some more leeway in handling cases.

The market should decide. People buy Nomads because they're good creekboats. If people are finding similar designs with better durablity or better replacement policies, they'll start buying those and I'm sure Dagger will adjust accordingly.

I just felt like rambling, but my main point was, I don't think you should just say, "Well LLs break, Pyranhas break, Daggers break, Jacksons break, Riots break", therefore all boats are equally durable.
 

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dude (ksc) - just admit -

1) all fancy new nicely outfitted WS's are bound to crack.

2) how can it NOT be a faulty design, if multiple people have this same crack becasue of where and how the seat and plastic touch?

3) no one is listening cause i already told you - the 6 yr old salto is the new hot boat. it is great to watch it float down BR, as you're swimming after it and dodging holes and rocks -

hey nateK - was that salto that got replaced over a year old?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thanks KSC, we are listening. I'll look into the crosslinking boats some more. It would be interesting to have some independent testing done on boats to see what durability and failure modes are like. I guess I'll add that one to my list of jobs I'd like to do after winning the lottery.

I guess I'll just try to patch up my trusty ole nomad and have my very own frankenboat! I like Ture's idea of having a beater boat to do the rocky stuff with.
 

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DSP, and any others that are trying to figure out the superiority of plastics...

This document is from a professor at BYU. Although I don't know him personally, he is the shiznit when it comes to plastics. Funny thing with all linear plastics is that they are all the same. All companies like to name their plastic Riot's Cross Max (High Density Linear), Super Linear (just high density linear).

According to our plastics rep, who is the same guy that sells to all brands, linear is linear... except for the densities.

Cross link is a whole other game. There are drawbacks. It's super toxic to make, so we outsource to crosslink molders. It's only really recyclable via grinding and applying in asphault (which is a very cool way to recycle), and bottom line from a manufacturing standpoint... IT EXPENSIVE PLASTIC....

But, EJ firmly believes in it and its a fact that we have only warrantied 9 retail boats since we started the company. Another fact is that 4 of those were incorrectly cooked at linear temps and therefore were SUPER brittle. So I would contest from a breaking standpiont we have really just 5 out of 6000+ boats in the market.

Another admission, our team members have broken a few, I think about 6 more. Me being one of them, but I was litterally teetering on a needle point put in and heard it crack as I was sliding into boulder creek put in. If I had paid retail for that boat, I would have never tried to put in on that thing...ever.

Regardless, here is the read on Cross link from a third party professor. It's a bit long, but super informative and easy to read.
http://www.jacksonkayak.com/pdf/performance.pdf[/url]
 

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KSC - "Jackson boats are the strongest on the market because of the cross link plastic." - Anonymous CKS employee who required that he remain un-named. I'm not sure if CKS carries Prijon.

Also, I will admit that I unfortunately pitoned my Rocker off an 18ft cliff into inches of water this summer. The outfitting gave as it was designed, so I didn't break my ankles. I did hog nose the boat, but it popped back out after a few hours in the sun. Tough boats.
Joe
 
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