Mountain Buzz banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
122 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I've got a 14' NRS Outlaw 140 and have been kicking around the idea of going to a cat. I want to be able to do multiday trips with a passenger onboard.

Seems like most say to size up to a 16ft cat to get similar capacity of a 14ft raft. But, I'd like to keep my craft as small as possible and squeeze into a 14ft if possible. Does that still hold true with the larger diameter cat tubes (i.e. Aire Lion)?

Anyone have an idea on the max load capacity of the 14' Lion (25.5" tubes) as compared to the 14' Outlaw (21" tubes) where you can still maneuver them reasonably?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
168 Posts
Check out the Jacks plastic website, he used to have a load to tube size calculator that was awesome. Keep in mind that the floor adds a lot of buoyancy, and capacity. Bucket boats have a higher capacity than self bailers also.


Rafts are safer and more comfortable for passengers, why do you want to move to a cat?


If I was in your situation I would stick with the round boat. If you are looking to go without a passenger on class IV/V, or big water a cat may offer some advantages...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
806 Posts
I have a 15' Sotar Legend w 24" tubes which works fine w oarsman and one passenger plus some group gear. I'm 195, she's around 125. We carry a Yeti cooler plus full dry box, kitchen, water jugs, handwash, dish buckets, gear bags, tents, etc.

If I were to do it again I might get oversized 25" tubes but would not go any shorter in length. Might even consider 15'6" or 16' tubes. You really don't notice a one ft length diff when on the water. My guess is 14' tubes is pushing it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
649 Posts
14' lion 4 inch draw 422 lbs
5 inch draw 582 lbs
6 inch draw 754 lbs

14' Legend 4 inch draw 372 lbs
5 inch draw 512 lbs
6 inch draw 664 lbs

15.6 Legend 4 inch draw 394 lbs
5 inch draw 542 lbs
6 inch draw 702 lbs

The legend draw is an estimate because Sotar does not give a water line measurement. But I took an educated guess. I used the barrel on it side formula to do the math. Also I used 24 inch tubes on the 14 foot legend because that is what mine are and I wanted to see how it stacked up to a 15.6 legend.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Just my opinion based upon experience and zero science. If you use the 14' tubes go as big in diameter as possible. I started with 14x24 and have since moved up to 16'. Run my rig down the same stuff my buddies do in their 13' & 14' rafts no problem. Only thing I screwed up was I now have an extra foot hanging out the ass-end of the trailer.

IMO- 15' JPW would be the perfect compromise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
649 Posts
I just stretched the water line 4 inches on the 15.6 legend and only gained a gallon per tube so you only get 16 .68 extra pounds per inch of draw. The lion will do better because they have zero kick so they gain even more volume as they are sunk.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
The 14ft NRS and Aire Lion will haul a passenger and as much gear as you could want for two. I have had both, currently have the Lion 14ft.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
168 Posts
Maybe a rookie question but why is this? Seems a self bailer with more buoyancy would offer a higher capacity?
It is because when you overload a self bailing boat, the water can cover the floor because of the bailing holes. A bucket boat will keep the water from entering through the floor, leading to more buoyancy because the entire surface area of the raft is resisting the weight of the gear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
To the Op - is there any reason you won't or can't go longer than a 14' cat?


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzzy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,792 Posts
I lashed a Aire Lynx 2 beneath a heavy frame for a Grand trip because I was not stratified with carrying capacity of the 18' Leopard tubes. It worked well but would have work better had I not pushed the ducky tube so deep in the water that the current had its way with it. Another part of the problem is that the ducky also takes on water and is not necessary rapidly self bailing. So in essence, you are rowing the weight of a ducky which as been full of water since the first wave of the rapid. I think a tri-cat using ducky tubes(without a floor) beneath would work well, however, forget about straddling rocks in the future.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
164 Posts
Yup, inflatable floor adds buoyancy and capacity for sure. I don't think there's much argument that weight wise you could carry more in a 14' self-bailing raft than 14' cat with the caveat that the raft has smaller tubes so with the Lion, I'd guess you're getting pretty close (just a guess though, too lazy to do the ciphering).

I don't agree that bucket boats have higher weight capacity than a self bailer with same-size tubes until you show the physics of water displaced versus buoyancy added by the inflatable floor.

Also, what is your basis for stating that rafts are safer and more comfortable for passengers? That is a very subjective judgement that could easily be argued the other way.

After driving rafts and cats for quite a while I find the handling of a cat much nicer the way it cuts through waves, doesn't surf, and is less flippable either end over or side to side than a raft. I also find rigging into drop bags (rectangular) much easier than trying to fit stuff into the oddly shaped stern of a raft but I am sure that is a personal preference. The disadvantage to me of a cat is that on smaller rivers, you've got lots more boat sticking out on the corners trying to catch on rocks compared to a raft that is rounded on the corners especially if you're rowing a 16' cat rather than a 14' raft because you need to carry the same weight as a 14' raft. Small rivers my nod goes to rafts, larger rivers, longer trips - cats better IMO but you do sometimes need to pack a little lighter because of the lower weight capacity. That said, we did a 24 day GC trip with 6 people on 3 cats and it worked out very nicely.

Check out the Jacks plastic website, he used to have a load to tube size calculator that was awesome. Keep in mind that the floor adds a lot of buoyancy, and capacity. Bucket boats have a higher capacity than self bailers also.


Rafts are safer and more comfortable for passengers, why do you want to move to a cat?


If I was in your situation I would stick with the round boat. If you are looking to go without a passenger on class IV/V, or big water a cat may offer some advantages...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
122 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
To the Op - is there any reason you won't or can't go longer than a 14' cat?
Could always go larger if needed, but I'd like to try and keep it as small as possible. Seems like if you've got empty room, it ends up getting filled up with extra junk you don't need.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,792 Posts
"Semievolved's" response is spot on comparing cats and rafts.

I've owned two Jack's Daddy Cats, a custom Jack's 18x30 for motoring in the Sea of Cortez, a 14' Aire Ocelot, an 18' Aire Leopard and an 16' Aire Lion.

I've always found passengers awkward on Catarafts. Probably because I'm usually a gear boat and passengers are either piled on top or must dangle there feet into open space at the front of the boat.

I'm thinking about getting a 14' Aire Lion for perhaps tighter multiday trips(low water MF Salmon) and continue loving my 16' Aire Lion for bigger water and Grand trips.

Since this thread began as a discussion of carrying capacity, I suggest staying away from higher performance cats that have long taper and enhanced rocker.

My preference for a Cargo Cat are Aire Lions because are mostly bomb proof. RMR is also making a very affordable three chamber cat out of durable material that deserves consideration (after they put on a bow D-ring). Or course there are other cargo cats; NRS and Sotar.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
649 Posts
More useful crap.

14' Wave Destroyer 4" draw 340 lbs
5 " 469 lbs
6" 699

15' Wave Destroyer 4" draw 372 lbs
5" 510 lbs
6" 660

16' Jag 4" draw 392 lbs
5" draw 540 lbs
6" 699

18' Leopard 4" draw 454 lbs
5" draw 626 lbs
6" draw 812 lbs

16' Lion 4" draw 509 lbs
5" draw 702 lbs
6" draw 912 lbs

As we used to say when we were building pulling truck engines " There is no replacement for displacement"
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top