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Camp Consultant App-Grand Canyon (was GC0000-0010)

9K views 52 replies 8 participants last post by  GeoRon 
#1 ·
Please pay no attention to this unless you are a pocket protector type.;)

Attached is a PDF of Grand Canyon mile 0000 to 0010 camps, mile zero to mile 10 camps.

These three camps are presented in this PDF as digital perspective of detailed horizon and solar paths at three critical times of year. Considering the path of the sum and the horizon line permits a perfect understanding of sunrise and sunset on any day of the year.

This PDF is only offered at this time to allow me to dial in processes necessary for future enhancement of presentation on a mobile device and also of a process likely to take a year considering the severe time constraints of retirement and data processing of camps in increments of 10 river miles.

You may compare sunrise and sunset using on site calculations in the following file. Please understand that their processes were very limited and constrained by factors beyond there control. My calculations are very precise as observed by an ant looking up from a precise location.

https://rrfw.org/RaftingGrandCanyon/Camp_sun/shade

Without further ado,
Ron
 

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#6 ·
I had trouble opening it in the MB app. Switch to Mountain Buzz in a browser.

Also, do you have pdf viewer app installed? I'm formatting specific to a mobile device so that you can scroll camps on your smart phone and not have to take reams of paper on your trip.

I'd very much appreciate it if you can test it. When do you leave? I'm currently having to update data such as camp site mileage in the most upper right. My original mileages were USGS. Now I'm conforming to GCMRC which is what Rivermaps uses now.

The number between the name of the camp and the mileage code is the map number for a guide I never published.

The mileage code is defines as implicite single decimal, river left(L) or right(R) and in the case of camps a suffix "C".

Below the mileage code is q- or s- followed by a number which defines relative quality from 0 to 10 and size 0 to 10. These ranking values date to my interpretations made during runs made in the 1980s and 1990s. They deserve updating and community review.

The need for a coordinate is obsolete considering that Rivermaps provides all annotations of map mile markers and camps as downloadable gpx files.
 
#7 ·
I have updated the plots with labels for the arcs to indicate solstices and equinoxes.

The rose diagram is the perspective of a very high flying condor, say thirty-five thousand feet(think passenger jet).

Dark black is the trace of the horizon. I might someday vary the thickness of the trace in rose view(plan view) to correspond to the thickness lines of the horizon as shown in cross-section to the left. The thickness of the line indicates relative distance to the horizon.

Blue is the trace of the river.

Magenta numbers are mile markers that must be updated. I'll in the near future process Rivermaps GPX file and extract GCMRC coordinates that Dwain uses.

The orange traces are solar traces included to truly marvel the difference of the sun's path at different times of year.
 
#8 ·
It is sponsored. I'm sitting in Tahiti right now, complements of a sponsor, contemplating how to spend the day:)

Actually, it is mostly done for personal entertainment and a community service. Some people play video games, I diddle with numbers while always making sure my pens and pencils are properly arranged in my pocket protector. Actually, geologist don't use pocket protectors, we use map cases on a belt at our hips. Much kooler looking, but I might be biased.
 
#9 ·
I do think it is cool. Looking down the road (or river as it were) have you considered normalizing the results so you could indicate each camp as being morning + or - and the same for evening. Or perhaps those numbers would change too much seasonally? For example, if a camp had a morning +1 or maybe +2 you it seems you could more easily compare camps with such a rating system. Just a suggestion. Not that I don't like charts...
 
#13 ·
jbolson,
I slept on this idea(literally). This is a great idea I think achieved by sorting by date and generating a compressed table of all camps that can be quickly browsed for a given date. This would be a very doable way to do something Infidien and I have discussed, slider bar control of date to do neat things.

Perhaps my next project will be to generate tables of SR-SS using my ground truthed visualization tool. Database this SR-SS table. Then the user interface would be a list of all camps with adjacent columns for SR and SS and a slider bar for date. But this project requires me to get though the visualizations.

With regard to normalization, I think a derivative + or - value might be taking you away from what you really want to compare most, which is sunrise and sunset. A relative value based upon normalization would mean that you'd just have to back calculate what you really want know, hence unnecessary mental gymnastics.

However, considering the above SR-SS app adding two adjacent columns containing normalized relative values would be possible. Wow, then you could add a slider bar to control your normalization. Now that is diddling around with the numbers. Let's make it so.

I can do this in Visual Basic. Ideally it should be a smart phone app. Anyone out there good at such things as apps?
 
#12 ·
I assume that you are referring to the Boatman's Almanac as "not at all accurate"? Comparing it to synthesized visualizations, I'd say that the Almanac is a very decent generalized reference. They used a complex gizmo that required precise setup and operation at each location. It wasn't designed for "drive by" measurements that would take hours to get the precision that is implied by the tables. I suspect there was a fair amount of guesstimates, good enough's and post facto interpolation. Under the circumstances, what they did was amazing.

It will be interesting to see how well the visualization tool turns out. Infidien has offered to do some ground truthing on his upcoming trip late this month. I have boated with him and consider him a highly qualified mariner and observer having spent years sailing his boat around the world with his wife and young daughter on board. Interactions with him have already concluded that I switch to another toolbox to calculate corrected GMT hourly locations along the solar paths. New times shift .5 hours toward sunrise relative to my old tool. The old tool had too much of a tendency to center noon at the 12 o'clock position.

I will admit to certain imprecision's. The greatest of which are where to start(the zero point) and the elevation of the coordinate at the zero point. I'm sure to suffer the criticism of "well, this thing is all screwed up! The sun is not hitting my tent!".

My zero point was determined using multiple sets of air photos as on the beach shore ward of the bow of tied up boats at what was(is) the primary tie up of a camp. My zero elevation was heavily weighted by GCMRR's river elevation, the digital elevation model and having been to most of the camps often more than once.
 
#16 ·
I just spent a bike ride mostly considering the practical value of jbolson's suggestion of normalization and how best to express normalizations' use in practice. (I only crashed and burned a few times.)

Let's consider a TL's possible desire to launch at 9am. Normalizing to 9am with appropriate processing will calculate plus or minus hours before or after 9am for all camps. Likewise, setting a normalized sunset time will allow the TL to compare plus or minus hours before his preferred sun below the horizon time.

Having slider controls for date, morning normalization and evening normalization and resulting adjacent columns of sunrise-sunset,morning plus-minus and evening plus-minus will provide more info than 99.9% of the boating population would ever care about. Let's do it for no other reason than to witness how many ways non-pocket-protector-types can say WTF?.

(And with a few more modifications to consider camp quality and size we can likely eliminate the need to have uppity TL's on a trip? :))

Now I've got to go find a sponsor for this app, cha-ching! I'll split the million dollars with you jbolson. Who do I make the check out to?
 
#17 ·
While two numbers (mean and deviation) for each date would capture all the info, as you state. I'm curious if you can distill it down to one number, namely the average deviation. The question becomes how much does the deviation change with the day of the year. I'm sure there will be some variation, but you might find the variation is minor compared to the difference in average deviation between camps. If so, you got one number (or two, one for morn and one for night) for each camp.



If you are trying to decide between a few candidate camps, knowing if the camp gets late sun or early sun relative to your other candidate camps would be great info. On river time, the absolute time of day is unknown to most except the anal TL.


As for the millions, you can donate my share to the foundation to eliminate anal TLs. As to ID, you know me, we did the ditch together back in '91.
 
#18 ·
Hi Ron, We once were on the same Westwater trip so long ago......great trip with you as the main descriptor of the upcoming rapids. Not a big deal, but my memory is your firepan keeping my folding shovel. :) Have enjoyed your thousand messages to MB. Have you tried Peak Finder to accomplish the Sun Rise and Sun Set data for a given location? Not only shows horizon profile but, also the Arc path of Sun and times of SR and SS. https://www.peakfinder.org/about/
I have a GC launch Feb 15 and will try this software for accuracy and usefulness.
Does Tahiti had the Green Flash?
Mike
 
#19 ·
Busted, sorry about that. The things I find in that firepan bag each time it gets reopened are scary. Usually a butt ugly rusted firepan full of wet ash, mold and pure rust.

Next time we hook up I'll get that shovel, you'll have to pick it out from perhaps half a dozen? I'll even give you the firepan! I've switched to one of those aluminum things with mesh bottom.

Did we set up my propane sauna on that trip??

I'll check out peakfinder and thanks. I wonder if it has the resolution to do what is necessary in the Grand Canyon. I doubt it uses a high resolution digital elevation model since it says it can stand alone from an internet connect.

That, ah, Tahiti thing was joke.
 
#25 ·
ArcGIS

I'm thinking we need to get ArcGIS involved here. I've used it to calculate solar gain for optimum solar collector position.

When I'm at my other computer, I'll mess around. We could deploy this as an app which shows the camps on a map. Enter date and then a slider for time of day to show early or late solar gain.

LOL
 
#26 ·
I'm thinking we need to get ArcGIS involved here. I've used it to calculate solar gain for optimum solar collector position.

When I'm at my other computer, I'll mess around. We could deploy this as an app which shows the camps on a map. Enter date and then a slider for time of day to show early or late solar gain.

LOL
Kool Flaco,

I do ArcGis but only to general maps. I'd really enjoy discussing this further if you are serious(or not).
 
#30 ·
Wow, sun in January from 11:30 until 4:00 clipped at 3:00. Magical!

Out to mile 20 which I have posted;;; precisely corrected to GMT and repositioned to Rivermaps; I'm feeling with all humility aside: pretty precise.:grin:

I have Google Earth Street-View/ground truthed EVERY camp out to mile 20. By this I mean Google Earth has the entire Grand Canyon street viewed from a mid river perspective. CHECK IT OUT if you have not already.

With minor mental adjustment to Rivermap coordinate perspective, horizons are spot on.

I have total faith now in solar paths.

This is something you can precisely plan by if it matters.
 
#33 ·
A few notes.

Certain camps cannot be properly calcuted digitally relative to overhangs and immediately adjacent vertical walls.

I now use the coordinates determined by Dwain and Tom provided via the GPX file from Rivermaps.net. Thank you guys. I owe you for this and much more.

Their coordinate spotted a location determinable from high resolution air photos. Obviously, they did not spot a location under an overhang such as at Poncho's Kitchen. Their location is set out on beach away from that overhang by many meters.

Digitally, calculating the elevation of a spotting of a point under an overhang provides an elevation of the surface above the overhang, at Poncho's an elevation perhaps a several hundred feet or more over head.

Going forward I'll try to note camps of similar dilemma as having "overhangs" or exaggerated shade potential. I've got to figure out how best to do that. A few camps with such difficulties are Hot Na Na, Martha's, Poncho's and a few others.

For now the best I can do is to digitally determine the lowest elevation of a minimal circular area(5 meters) proximal to the Rivermaps coordinate and proceed 360 with horizon calculations based on that low point.

My other option is to grab the river elevation closest to Rivermaps coordinate and use that elevation. That would work best in a few cases but bugger me in others situations.

These processes are a very slow moving video game. That is, spend an hour or two trying to deal with "special cases" only to determine whether it was or not a total waste of time.
 
#35 ·
GC040-050

Sunrise-Sunset graphs between mile 40 and 50.

I'm testing a new feature. The file Spreadsheet040-050 contains two columns of hyperlinks at the right. If Google Chrome and Google Maps is properly set up on your desktop or laptop clicking on "Sat" should launch Google Maps and zoom to a satellite image of the camp. Clicking on "River" should zoom to a river view of the camp. Let me know if any one has a luck with this feature.
 

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#38 ·
Grand Canyon Camps 060-070

Attached are sunrise-sunset graphs between miles 60 and 70 for the Grand Canyon. The spreadsheet summarizes the camps and has hyperlinks for immediate access to birds-eye and river view of the camps in Google Maps.

The spreadsheet column "Size" denotes the relative size of the camp expressed between "0" for non-existent to "9" for largest.

The spreadsheet column "Quality" denotes the relative quality of the camp expressed between "0" for "I'd never stay there" to "9" for best quality.

The opinions of Size and Quality are based upon many sources but mostly my fading memory and extensive notes taken while on the river. I refreshed that memory using Google Map perspectives from above and at river level. These perspectives are bookmarked by hyperlinks "Sat View" and "River View" for the purpose of your own evaluation. When denoted as 0 to 2 camps become questionable as to whether they still exist or have been misplaced by the authors of Rivermaps.

I welcome second opinions concerning camps and I'll be certain to acknowledge you as a source if merited.

The spreadsheet column RM_Page denotes the Rivermaps Map page on which the camp is found.
 

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#45 ·
I've thought about it now.

Substantial programming over the last week addressed the question of future rivers. The programming streamlined and tightened the concept of tight coordination with the amazing guidebook series "Rivermaps".

I must admit I have had to "adjust" coordinates of a few camps to reality but the guidebooks and Rivermap gpx files are for(most) practical purposes precise.

Perhaps the next project will be the Main Salmon as requested by Nubie Jon but my campsite notes there are spotty and the lack of Google river level views tend to steer me to do the Yampa next.

My current programming however tends to allow(before death) all Rivermap guide rivers.

Hence, wrapping back to mile zero with above considerations are Grand Canyon mile 0 to 40,,,,,,,, tomorrow cause screwed up.
 

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#42 ·
Grand Canyon Camps 080-100

This is how it is fleshing out.....

Twenty miles per page.

Inclusion of rapids and their current and historic considerations(blue).

Significant stops(red).

Camps green now including a column for sunrise and sunset estimated at three critical times to the nearest significant half hour.

Camps, rapids and significant stops hyperlink to Google Maps plan and river views.

And More.
 

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