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Its me. The skull was in the shrine at Westwater one year. Hopefully I'm looking a little better, unless you have x-ray vision.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
While two numbers (mean and deviation) for each date would capture all the info, as you state. I'm curious if you can distill it down to one number, namely the average deviation. The question becomes how much does the deviation change with the day of the year. I'm sure there will be some variation, but you might find the variation is minor compared to the difference in average deviation between camps. If so, you got one number (or two, one for morn and one for night) for each camp.

If you are trying to decide between a few candidate camps, knowing if the camp gets late sun or early sun relative to your other candidate camps would be great info. On river time, the absolute time of day is unknown to most except the anal TL.
I'll have to think about what only one number can express with regard to camp selection and solar optimization. Really gets into expressing skew if you try to use deviation and that is total pocket protector stuff for an engineer (like you:)!).

There is a lot of variability by camp and season which you should examine. I have a pdf that I generated of camps as far down as owl's eye for you to ponder if you like. It is a version that is very old but adequate. Let me know if I should send it.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
My zero point was determined using multiple sets of air photos as on the beach shore ward of the bow of tied up boats at what was(is) the primary tie up of a camp. My zero elevation was heavily weighted by GCMRR's river elevation, the digital elevation model and having been to most of the camps often more than once.
Bummer, at every turn I feel as if I continuously rowing upstream or peeing into the wind with regard to my zero point. I likely spent hundreds of hours spotting zero points 20 years ago.

Obviously, the true bible of camp coordinates, and all other boater related coordinates, is Tom and Dwain's Rivermaps. Therefore, rather than introduce another set of coordinates that will only inject confusion I'm going to convert my zero points to correspond to Rivermaps. Rivermaps will also be more centered on a "kitchen", "group" or "common" area than my original logic of bench front focus.

This will likely set back progress for days but hopefully down the road save days
 

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Discussion Starter #24
GC0000-0020

Attached are graphs for camps between river mile 0 and river mile 20.

Zero point and mile markers are set to Rivermaps coordinates.
 

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$5 shower
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ArcGIS

I'm thinking we need to get ArcGIS involved here. I've used it to calculate solar gain for optimum solar collector position.

When I'm at my other computer, I'll mess around. We could deploy this as an app which shows the camps on a map. Enter date and then a slider for time of day to show early or late solar gain.

LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #26
I'm thinking we need to get ArcGIS involved here. I've used it to calculate solar gain for optimum solar collector position.

When I'm at my other computer, I'll mess around. We could deploy this as an app which shows the camps on a map. Enter date and then a slider for time of day to show early or late solar gain.

LOL
Kool Flaco,

I do ArcGis but only to general maps. I'd really enjoy discussing this further if you are serious(or not).
 

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Kool Flaco,

I do ArcGis but only to general maps. I'd really enjoy discussing this further if you are serious(or not).
I just need to make time to figure on it. First step would be to find a a good raster layer with which to start. I'm pretty much a hack with ESRI but I have their software.

Ken
 

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Discussion Starter #29
I just need to make time to figure on it. First step would be to find a a good raster layer with which to start. I'm pretty much a hack with ESRI but I have their software.

Ken
Oh,,,, I understand.

Actually, I'm little more than a very, very experienced hack with ESRI.

As required by geologic consulting I have DRG, DEM and NAIP for all of North America(and to a lesser extent perhaps the world). Let me know what you might need,,,, simplified to northern AZ.

Let's discuss.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I remember Brown's Inscription as a great afternoon camp in January. Very accurate.
Wow, sun in January from 11:30 until 4:00 clipped at 3:00. Magical!

Out to mile 20 which I have posted;;; precisely corrected to GMT and repositioned to Rivermaps; I'm feeling with all humility aside: pretty precise.:grin:

I have Google Earth Street-View/ground truthed EVERY camp out to mile 20. By this I mean Google Earth has the entire Grand Canyon street viewed from a mid river perspective. CHECK IT OUT if you have not already.

With minor mental adjustment to Rivermap coordinate perspective, horizons are spot on.

I have total faith now in solar paths.

This is something you can precisely plan by if it matters.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
I remember Brown's Inscription as a great afternoon camp in January. Very accurate.
Wow, sun in January from 11:30 until 4:00 clipped at 3:00. Magical!

Out to mile 20 which I have posted;;; precisely corrected to GMT and repositioned to Rivermaps; I'm feeling with all humility aside: pretty precise.:grin:

I have Google Earth Street-View/ground truthed EVERY camp out to mile 20. By this I mean Google Earth has the entire Grand Canyon street viewed from a mid river perspective. CHECK IT OUT if you have not already.

With minor mental adjustment to Rivermap coordinate perspective, horizons are spot on.

I have total faith now in solar paths validated by SunPath.

This is something you can plan by if it matters I think. I look forward to further ground truthing.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
A few notes.

Certain camps cannot be properly calcuted digitally relative to overhangs and immediately adjacent vertical walls.

I now use the coordinates determined by Dwain and Tom provided via the GPX file from Rivermaps.net. Thank you guys. I owe you for this and much more.

Their coordinate spotted a location determinable from high resolution air photos. Obviously, they did not spot a location under an overhang such as at Poncho's Kitchen. Their location is set out on beach away from that overhang by many meters.

Digitally, calculating the elevation of a spotting of a point under an overhang provides an elevation of the surface above the overhang, at Poncho's an elevation perhaps a several hundred feet or more over head.

Going forward I'll try to note camps of similar dilemma as having "overhangs" or exaggerated shade potential. I've got to figure out how best to do that. A few camps with such difficulties are Hot Na Na, Martha's, Poncho's and a few others.

For now the best I can do is to digitally determine the lowest elevation of a minimal circular area(5 meters) proximal to the Rivermaps coordinate and proceed 360 with horizon calculations based on that low point.

My other option is to grab the river elevation closest to Rivermaps coordinate and use that elevation. That would work best in a few cases but bugger me in others situations.

These processes are a very slow moving video game. That is, spend an hour or two trying to deal with "special cases" only to determine whether it was or not a total waste of time.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
GC040-050

Sunrise-Sunset graphs between mile 40 and 50.

I'm testing a new feature. The file Spreadsheet040-050 contains two columns of hyperlinks at the right. If Google Chrome and Google Maps is properly set up on your desktop or laptop clicking on "Sat" should launch Google Maps and zoom to a satellite image of the camp. Clicking on "River" should zoom to a river view of the camp. Let me know if any one has a luck with this feature.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Grand Canyon Camps 050-060

Attached are sunrise-sunset graphs between miles 50 and 60 for the Grand Canyon. The spreadsheet sumarizes the camps and has hyperlinks for immediate access to birds-eye and river view of the camps in Google Maps.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Grand Canyon Camps 060-070

Attached are sunrise-sunset graphs between miles 60 and 70 for the Grand Canyon. The spreadsheet summarizes the camps and has hyperlinks for immediate access to birds-eye and river view of the camps in Google Maps.

The spreadsheet column "Size" denotes the relative size of the camp expressed between "0" for non-existent to "9" for largest.

The spreadsheet column "Quality" denotes the relative quality of the camp expressed between "0" for "I'd never stay there" to "9" for best quality.

The opinions of Size and Quality are based upon many sources but mostly my fading memory and extensive notes taken while on the river. I refreshed that memory using Google Map perspectives from above and at river level. These perspectives are bookmarked by hyperlinks "Sat View" and "River View" for the purpose of your own evaluation. When denoted as 0 to 2 camps become questionable as to whether they still exist or have been misplaced by the authors of Rivermaps.

I welcome second opinions concerning camps and I'll be certain to acknowledge you as a source if merited.

The spreadsheet column RM_Page denotes the Rivermaps Map page on which the camp is found.
 

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