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Discussion Starter #1
Please pay no attention to this unless you are a pocket protector type.;)

Attached is a PDF of Grand Canyon mile 0000 to 0010 camps, mile zero to mile 10 camps.

These three camps are presented in this PDF as digital perspective of detailed horizon and solar paths at three critical times of year. Considering the path of the sum and the horizon line permits a perfect understanding of sunrise and sunset on any day of the year.

This PDF is only offered at this time to allow me to dial in processes necessary for future enhancement of presentation on a mobile device and also of a process likely to take a year considering the severe time constraints of retirement and data processing of camps in increments of 10 river miles.

You may compare sunrise and sunset using on site calculations in the following file. Please understand that their processes were very limited and constrained by factors beyond there control. My calculations are very precise as observed by an ant looking up from a precise location.

https://rrfw.org/RaftingGrandCanyon/Camp_sun/shade

Without further ado,
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Having done this step I can see that there is work to be done. Thank you for your time.
 

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Great idea but wouldn't open on my phone. What are the chances of a prototype i could beta test for you in the next 2 week's?
 

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Cool work Ron. I assume the three arcs are the solstices and equinox? The rose diagram doesn't add much info for my ant brain. It's the same info presented differently, correct?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Great idea but wouldn't open on my phone. What are the chances of a prototype i could beta test for you in the next 2 week's?
I had trouble opening it in the MB app. Switch to Mountain Buzz in a browser.

Also, do you have pdf viewer app installed? I'm formatting specific to a mobile device so that you can scroll camps on your smart phone and not have to take reams of paper on your trip.

I'd very much appreciate it if you can test it. When do you leave? I'm currently having to update data such as camp site mileage in the most upper right. My original mileages were USGS. Now I'm conforming to GCMRC which is what Rivermaps uses now.

The number between the name of the camp and the mileage code is the map number for a guide I never published.

The mileage code is defines as implicite single decimal, river left(L) or right(R) and in the case of camps a suffix "C".

Below the mileage code is q- or s- followed by a number which defines relative quality from 0 to 10 and size 0 to 10. These ranking values date to my interpretations made during runs made in the 1980s and 1990s. They deserve updating and community review.

The need for a coordinate is obsolete considering that Rivermaps provides all annotations of map mile markers and camps as downloadable gpx files.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Cool work Ron. I assume the three arcs are the solstices and equinox? The rose diagram doesn't add much info for my ant brain. It's the same info presented differently, correct?
I have updated the plots with labels for the arcs to indicate solstices and equinoxes.

The rose diagram is the perspective of a very high flying condor, say thirty-five thousand feet(think passenger jet).

Dark black is the trace of the horizon. I might someday vary the thickness of the trace in rose view(plan view) to correspond to the thickness lines of the horizon as shown in cross-section to the left. The thickness of the line indicates relative distance to the horizon.

Blue is the trace of the river.

Magenta numbers are mile markers that must be updated. I'll in the near future process Rivermaps GPX file and extract GCMRC coordinates that Dwain uses.

The orange traces are solar traces included to truly marvel the difference of the sun's path at different times of year.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Great idea Ron. I bet you could make a lot of money on this, as long as it was free.
It is sponsored. I'm sitting in Tahiti right now, complements of a sponsor, contemplating how to spend the day:)

Actually, it is mostly done for personal entertainment and a community service. Some people play video games, I diddle with numbers while always making sure my pens and pencils are properly arranged in my pocket protector. Actually, geologist don't use pocket protectors, we use map cases on a belt at our hips. Much kooler looking, but I might be biased.
 

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I do think it is cool. Looking down the road (or river as it were) have you considered normalizing the results so you could indicate each camp as being morning + or - and the same for evening. Or perhaps those numbers would change too much seasonally? For example, if a camp had a morning +1 or maybe +2 you it seems you could more easily compare camps with such a rating system. Just a suggestion. Not that I don't like charts...
 

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This table was not at all accurate for the camps we stayed at for our Dec 2017 trip.
I assume that you are referring to the Boatman's Almanac as "not at all accurate"? Comparing it to synthesized visualizations, I'd say that the Almanac is a very decent generalized reference. They used a complex gizmo that required precise setup and operation at each location. It wasn't designed for "drive by" measurements that would take hours to get the precision that is implied by the tables. I suspect there was a fair amount of guesstimates, good enough's and post facto interpolation. Under the circumstances, what they did was amazing.

It will be interesting to see how well the visualization tool turns out. Infidien has offered to do some ground truthing on his upcoming trip late this month. I have boated with him and consider him a highly qualified mariner and observer having spent years sailing his boat around the world with his wife and young daughter on board. Interactions with him have already concluded that I switch to another toolbox to calculate corrected GMT hourly locations along the solar paths. New times shift .5 hours toward sunrise relative to my old tool. The old tool had too much of a tendency to center noon at the 12 o'clock position.

I will admit to certain imprecision's. The greatest of which are where to start(the zero point) and the elevation of the coordinate at the zero point. I'm sure to suffer the criticism of "well, this thing is all screwed up! The sun is not hitting my tent!".

My zero point was determined using multiple sets of air photos as on the beach shore ward of the bow of tied up boats at what was(is) the primary tie up of a camp. My zero elevation was heavily weighted by GCMRR's river elevation, the digital elevation model and having been to most of the camps often more than once.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I do think it is cool. Looking down the road (or river as it were) have you considered normalizing the results so you could indicate each camp as being morning + or - and the same for evening. Or perhaps those numbers would change too much seasonally? For example, if a camp had a morning +1 or maybe +2 you it seems you could more easily compare camps with such a rating system. Just a suggestion. Not that I don't like charts...
jbolson,
I slept on this idea(literally). This is a great idea I think achieved by sorting by date and generating a compressed table of all camps that can be quickly browsed for a given date. This would be a very doable way to do something Infidien and I have discussed, slider bar control of date to do neat things.

Perhaps my next project will be to generate tables of SR-SS using my ground truthed visualization tool. Database this SR-SS table. Then the user interface would be a list of all camps with adjacent columns for SR and SS and a slider bar for date. But this project requires me to get though the visualizations.

With regard to normalization, I think a derivative + or - value might be taking you away from what you really want to compare most, which is sunrise and sunset. A relative value based upon normalization would mean that you'd just have to back calculate what you really want know, hence unnecessary mental gymnastics.

However, considering the above SR-SS app adding two adjacent columns containing normalized relative values would be possible. Wow, then you could add a slider bar to control your normalization. Now that is diddling around with the numbers. Let's make it so.

I can do this in Visual Basic. Ideally it should be a smart phone app. Anyone out there good at such things as apps?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Infidien has offered to do some ground truthing on his upcoming trip late this month. I have boated with him and consider him a highly qualified mariner and observer having spent years sailing his boat around the world with his wife and young daughter on board. Interactions with him have already concluded that I switch to another toolbox to calculate corrected GMT hourly locations along the solar paths. New times shift .5 hours toward sunrise relative to my old tool. The old tool had too much of a tendency to center noon at the 12 o'clock position.
The tool Infidien recommended for sunrise sunset determination:
https://www.sunearthtools.com/dp/tools/pos_sun.php#top
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I just spent a bike ride mostly considering the practical value of jbolson's suggestion of normalization and how best to express normalizations' use in practice. (I only crashed and burned a few times.)

Let's consider a TL's possible desire to launch at 9am. Normalizing to 9am with appropriate processing will calculate plus or minus hours before or after 9am for all camps. Likewise, setting a normalized sunset time will allow the TL to compare plus or minus hours before his preferred sun below the horizon time.

Having slider controls for date, morning normalization and evening normalization and resulting adjacent columns of sunrise-sunset,morning plus-minus and evening plus-minus will provide more info than 99.9% of the boating population would ever care about. Let's do it for no other reason than to witness how many ways non-pocket-protector-types can say WTF?.

(And with a few more modifications to consider camp quality and size we can likely eliminate the need to have uppity TL's on a trip? :))

Now I've got to go find a sponsor for this app, cha-ching! I'll split the million dollars with you jbolson. Who do I make the check out to?
 

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While two numbers (mean and deviation) for each date would capture all the info, as you state. I'm curious if you can distill it down to one number, namely the average deviation. The question becomes how much does the deviation change with the day of the year. I'm sure there will be some variation, but you might find the variation is minor compared to the difference in average deviation between camps. If so, you got one number (or two, one for morn and one for night) for each camp.



If you are trying to decide between a few candidate camps, knowing if the camp gets late sun or early sun relative to your other candidate camps would be great info. On river time, the absolute time of day is unknown to most except the anal TL.


As for the millions, you can donate my share to the foundation to eliminate anal TLs. As to ID, you know me, we did the ditch together back in '91.
 

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Hi Ron, We once were on the same Westwater trip so long ago......great trip with you as the main descriptor of the upcoming rapids. Not a big deal, but my memory is your firepan keeping my folding shovel. :) Have enjoyed your thousand messages to MB. Have you tried Peak Finder to accomplish the Sun Rise and Sun Set data for a given location? Not only shows horizon profile but, also the Arc path of Sun and times of SR and SS. https://www.peakfinder.org/about/
I have a GC launch Feb 15 and will try this software for accuracy and usefulness.
Does Tahiti had the Green Flash?
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Hi Ron, We once were on the same Westwater trip so long ago......great trip with you as the main descriptor of the upcoming rapids. Not a big deal, but my memory is your firepan keeping my folding shovel. :) Have enjoyed your thousand messages to MB. Have you tried Peak Finder to accomplish the Sun Rise and Sun Set data for a given location? Not only shows horizon profile but, also the Arc path of Sun and times of SR and SS. https://www.peakfinder.org/about/
I have a GC launch Feb 15 and will try this software for accuracy and usefulness.
Does Tahiti had the Green Flash?
Mike
Busted, sorry about that. The things I find in that firepan bag each time it gets reopened are scary. Usually a butt ugly rusted firepan full of wet ash, mold and pure rust.

Next time we hook up I'll get that shovel, you'll have to pick it out from perhaps half a dozen? I'll even give you the firepan! I've switched to one of those aluminum things with mesh bottom.

Did we set up my propane sauna on that trip??

I'll check out peakfinder and thanks. I wonder if it has the resolution to do what is necessary in the Grand Canyon. I doubt it uses a high resolution digital elevation model since it says it can stand alone from an internet connect.

That, ah, Tahiti thing was joke.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
While two numbers (mean and deviation) for each date would capture all the info, as you state. I'm curious if you can distill it down to one number, namely the average deviation. The question becomes how much does the deviation change with the day of the year. I'm sure there will be some variation, but you might find the variation is minor compared to the difference in average deviation between camps. If so, you got one number (or two, one for morn and one for night) for each camp.



If you are trying to decide between a few candidate camps, knowing if the camp gets late sun or early sun relative to your other candidate camps would be great info. On river time, the absolute time of day is unknown to most except the anal TL.


As for the millions, you can donate my share to the foundation to eliminate anal TLs. As to ID, you know me, we did the ditch together back in '91.

John, is that you? Hope all is well! (I hope you look better than your MB photo that pops up next to your posts.)
 
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