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Discussion Starter #1
I have decided that I would like to buy a river running/creeker so that I have a play boat and a river runner.

I weigh 150 to 160, and price isn't too limited but of course I want to be resourceful but still get a great boat.

I am looking for a boat that I am going to want to paddle for a very long time and probably continue buying.

Right now I like the Burn, Diesel, Lil Joe, and Remix...

Any hidden advantages/disadvantages I should know about?

Any advocates that have loved these boats?

Right now someone has offered me a Pyranha H3 for a great price.
 

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I have a Remix and love it. Wife has a Mamba and loves it. Have you test drove the Mamba?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
No, although that is the only boat the closest shop to me has for demo. I can say that I had a old dagger for my first boat and I loved it. It was 12 years old and wasn't oil canning and didn't have a single gouge.
 

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Check out Bob at the Edge in Pueblo. He has Mamba demos. I have a few friends paddling Mambas and they all have great things to say about them.
 

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IMO the one must own boat right now, if buying new, is the JK Villain S. I think I would buy the Elite version for the good plastic and warranty.

This boat should please your creeking and river running needs for years, if not the rest of your life.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I was considering the villian, but it will be a few years before I get into any serious creeking so I thought the the Hero might be better for me. The edge is where I was talking about, I will be in town tomorrow so I may go run it through the park.
 

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The Remix 69 would be the perfect boat for you. I have paddled one a ton this year and continue to be impressed every time I grab it. SPEED. I see it every day teaching. A faster boat makes a massive difference in learning, manuverng around the river, etc. Also, the softer edge on the Remix makes it very forgiving and allows you to take it on steeper creeks in the future. We have them at Alpine Quest Sports for demo and have a boat in stock for retail. Here was my review on the Remix i put up a week or so ago. Ross Herr Kayaking

hope this helps, AQS' phone number is 970-926-3867
 

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Watch a lot of creeking videos and many of the Jefes you think you are seeing are Remixs. Look for the Remix logo on the stern. That will gives you an idea of the capabilities of the Remix. Great boat.
 

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I've paddled nearly everything accept for the villain. What fits will be more important the way you describe your intentions. These are how I rate the general runners/creekers

1) remix
2) Burn/Diesel/Hero
3) Nomad/Mamba (Nomad is faster but looser due to the displacement style hull)
4) Everything else...

I (personally) hate the Habitat and I rate the #2 group over the Dagger boats mostly for my fit. The diesel gets pushed around in creeks more than the others but it's an excellent river runner and a good learning boat. I didn't put the Jefe up there because I haven't paddled it enough to know how I like it though I'd wager it'd end up right there with the remix.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I am currently planned to demo a Mamba 7.5 tomorrow. Which brings me to a dilemna I am facing. Is it better to be at the top of the range or the bottom of the range.

7.5= 170 Max Weight
8.0= 150 Min Weight

I weight 160 right now.
 

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Closer to the top for playboats is okay, but you should be closer to the bottom for big boats.

I'll also plug the Hero. I just picked one up and am loving it. I also liked the Diesel for its speed and maneuverability, but I really like JK's outfitting. I couldn't steer the Remix, but I don't blame the boat. That thing is damn fast though! Didn't care for the Mamba or the Nomad. I also really liked the Villain. To me (I'm not a creeker), it didn't paddle like the Nomad and Jefe; I felt more at home coming from my Fun. The Prijon Cross was the weirdest boat I've ever paddled. Their creek boat paddled well but I couldn't get comfortable in it. I liked the Burn also, but found the large to paddle much better than the medium (I'm 6' 180#).

My advice is to go to Confluence Kayak and demo most of these boats on the Platte. You can get a taste for how they paddle in the play park there. Then go to Golden River Sports and demo the Pyranha's on CC. It's way easier and cheaper that way than picking one up and taking it for the day.
 

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If you're going to be staying in class III and below with this boat then the fit is more important than the weight range. If you're going to be doing multi-day trips then consider the extra weight you'll add and go up a notch. Demo the smaller volume boat first I'd say. If I recall, Alpenglow does free demos every friday afternoon in Golden.
 

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I am currently planned to demo a Mamba 7.5 tomorrow. Which brings me to a dilemna I am facing. Is it better to be at the top of the range or the bottom of the range.

7.5= 170 Max Weight
8.0= 150 Min Weight

I weight 160 right now.
I think you'll be OK in the 7.5 and it should float you nicely. I prefer having a bit of a bigger boat because I carry lots of junk in the trunk. I usually carry a rope, drybag with some stuff, extra paddle, pin kit etc. Are you going to be paddling at PPP tomorrow?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I am meeting at PPP at 7:30 am with John one of the guys that works at the edge. Sorry for the late notice. Your welcome to join, I'll also have my play boat and could really use some tips.
 

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Solid,

Seeing this thread still active I'm compelled to throw my two more cents in. I don't work for JK. Nor do I worry about which boat you buy. This thread just set me thinking. Indeed, there are numerous good boats out there and all of them can get you down the rivers with delight.

Nonetheless, when spending hard earned big bucks to buy a new boat, I don't comprehend there being any difficulty in choosing between a Villain S and a Remix. For sure buy the Villain!. You should always be appreciating having it in your quiver along with a playboat.

Like I said, no doubt there are numerous enjoyable boats. But, if paying for a NEW creek/rr boat ... why would you pass up purchasing the Villain now? Get 'er done. If you want to dabble in boat roulette, then shop used for a Remix, Diesel, Burn, Hero, Punk Rocker, Habitat, Y, etc.

If buying new, I doubt you suffer any buyer's remorse investing in the Villain S. I just feel pretty confident that the Villain will prove to be an often utilizied mainstay to any serious boater's quiver. A kayak that will better retain its value and provide many years of enjoyment. That is if you're serious about getting on many exciting rivers and creeks. If not, then most anything should do you fine.

Just saying.

Cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I demo'd the Mamba 7.5, it went really well it rolled easily, and seemed like it would handle itself really well on big water. I am going to demo the remix as well in a couple days. Also, I will demo a villian s, where can I do that at?
 

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I don't work for JK.
I ain't buying it. :mrgreen:
That is if you're serious about getting on many exciting rivers and creeks. If not, then most anything should do you fine.
Because you can't be a "serious" boater if you're not in a Villan? :rolleyes:

You got some funny logic Ken.

"Just saying"
 

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Ken, I am not buying it either. With the way you promote Jackson boats in this and other threads, there is no way you cannot have some kind of vested interest.


Solid, my advice to you is as follows:

1. Get feedback on the boats the best paddlers use with the understanding they have a vested interest in you buying the brand sponsoring them. Before I buy Max new equipment I always solicit Cutch, RiverWrangler, and Nick Wigston as they are fantastic paddlers and always provide me with great advice and insight.

2. Based on feedback narrow the choices down and demo, demo, and demo some more. Find the boat that is right for you.


For what it is worth, Max ended up getting a small Pyranha Burn as his river runner/creek boat. He demoed the Burn, Jefe, Rocker and Hero and it came down to the Jefe and the Burn. He chose the Burn as he felt it behaved the most like his slalom boat.


Disclaimer: We have no vested interest. Max paddles a Jackson playboat, a Pyranha creek boat, and a Galasport slalom boat while my daughter and I paddle an old Wavesport and old Riot respectively. However, we are partial to the guys at Downstream Edge as they planted and nutured the seed of my daughter's and Max's love for whitewater. We are also partial to Golden River Sports as we absolutely adore Bart and Patty (soon to be Mr and Mrs LaBarge)
 

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For Solid's benefit I guess I should disclaim also. My River Runner/Creek boat is a Remix 69, My CR is a Wavesport Fuse 64, and my playboat is a 2010 Jackson AllStar.
 

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Abron Cabron
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The Villain is an awesome boat. Its hard not to get excited about it, as it fits so much better,and performs so much better then equivalent boats. IMHO. (!!!)
heres why I think so:
It rolls like a charm, has simple reliable outfitting, fits thick ass legs like mine comfortably, is easier to really get the footbraces snug to your feet, and it has the anti-pitoning feature, which adds some flex to the footbraces when imposed upon. i havent really tested that and hopefully wont. I know some people say the rope /cleat backband system blows out when stressed, and that would definitely be not ok esp. in the crux of whatever youre doing, BUT I havent had the cleats fail at all yet... although I dont huck huge waterfalls, or even paddle class V. all I ve done is some micro class IV in NM (the rio santa cruz), and the Ark since ive had it. and I just try to be careful to make sure the rope is tight in the cleats. so it has worked for my needs flawlessly. I will not in all likely hood ever be doing some 'Hotel Charley' shit. Much respect to everyone who does. I just want to feel safe on some class IV.

BTW, I dont work for Jackson, and I actually just lost money this summer by learning the hard way... purchasing a Karnali,(with the recommendations that "sure it ought to be a great boat for you") .... w/out demoing it...., and finding out AFTER driving back from CO to NM that I couldnt roll it worth a shit, and swam twice on the racecourse trying to get used to it... Of course all that is my fault,... it sucks when your local boating store/demos are 5 hours away... I shoulda been Patient and waited for paddlefest... cause I traded that Karnali in at a $300 loss, and honestly despite the financial reaming, it was still the best thing to end up with a boat that gives me confidence again.

So yeah, gotta find out for yourself, and everyone fits different, Like if i had less of 'treetrunk' legs a diesel might be cherry, but for me wavesport's fit poorly enough that it causes my legs to hurt like sciatica, and my feet to go to sleep in the first ten minutes on the water... maybe not the right fit for me. (had a EZG60 for 5 years wish i woulda fiigured it out sooner.)
I sat in every river runner at paddlefest, because i didnt know if i 'deserved' a full on creeker, as a 'just' class III/IV boater. it came down to this for me
if youve got skinny legs... take your pick...
W/ my thick ass legs and frame...nothing else fit right.

Remix,Mamba, Diesel, Hero, and burn were my other choices, FWIW.. :mrgreen:
 
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