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Discussion Starter #1
Just got off the Green River AB section below the dam. Sheriff motioned us in at Little Hole ramp and cited me for not wearing my PFD. Stupid me took it off 5 minutes before. Looking around he could have cited a half dozen more.

My bad, but better contact Daggett County before they put out an APB.




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I personally feel like anything can happen at any time, doesn't matter what kind of water you're on. I wear my PFD and my helmet through almost anything that isn't completely flat. Otherwise you're just asking for it. I don't think it matters whether or not you'll get busted by the man; safety is the most important aspect of boating.
If you had safety on your mind, maybe you wouldn't have been ticketed.
 

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The Nanny state is alive and well. Sig Heil.

To be honest while I think wearing a PFD is a good idea, I personally don't a lot as well. Trying harder these days to set a good example for the mini-mes. Getting a ticket for not wearing a PFD??? What a giant load of BS.
 

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Carvedog- Nanny state... maybe, sig heil...hardly. I know that everyone thinks they know better, but everyone happens to enjoy many benefits of the 'nanny' state. Forcing companies to not dump toxic chemicals in our rivers, wear seatbelts, not shit and pee at the campsites on our rivers, and yes wear pfd's. This past summer has seen the deaths of many on our rivers, and pfd's have saved the lives of many more. Everyone is all gung ho about personal rights until they need help or rescue when the shit hits the fan. Without the regulations there would be way more deaths of both boaters and rescuers who put their lives on the line. Yes, it can go too far, but that is the price we pay to live in any civilized society. Just one old farts opinion.
 

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I think they also have a sign after Red Creek telling you it's ok to take your PFD off...

Maybe part of the reason I feel strongly about wearing your PFD, and even your helmet in most scenarios is because I'm used to being in a kayak. I think being in a raft gives you a false sense of comfort, kinda similar to being in a large pick up or SUV and not feeling the need to put on your seat belt, whereas if you're in a little shit box sedan your seat belt goes on before you even turn the ignition key.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I definitely should have had it on, for the safety that @soggy mentions, and for the positive influence on my kids.

Chalking this up to an easy lesson learned.
 

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Forcing companies to not dump toxic chemicals in our rivers, wear seatbelts, not shit and pee at the campsites on our rivers, and yes wear pfd's. This past summer has seen the deaths of many on our rivers, and pfd's have saved the lives of many more. Everyone is all gung ho about personal rights until they need help or rescue when the shit hits the fan. Without the regulations there would be way more deaths of both boaters and rescuers who put their lives on the line. Yes, it can go too far, but that is the price we pay to live in any civilized society. Just one old farts opinion.
It is a form of fascism that everyone must comply. To me wearing a PFD or a helmet when I motorcycle is a personal decision that affects no one else but me. If not wearing a PFD makes me 20 seconds slower coming to someone's rescue in a group situation then that group may decide to not boat with me. I take responsibility for the personal decisions that affect me.

Your rationale is what is the driving force behind the 'war on drugs' - it's better for society. What bullshit.

And the examples you cite of pollution and degrading the environment affect everyone. That is why I don't shit in the river or in camp. I am actually getting pretty fed up with what passes for civilized society these days. Brainwashed robots that lack critical thinking and personal responsibility trying to tell me how to exist in my own personal life where my decisions affect no one else but me.

It actually seems to me that almost every fatal incident I heard of this spring the victim had a PFD on. It didn't seem to help much.

I am not against PFDs and wear one most of the time. I just don't want to be forced to or fined if I don't. Thank God they don't do that in Idaho.
 

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Seems like if the cop really wanted to be a jerk, he would have ticketed everyone else that wasn't wearing their PFDs, huh? Sounds like he made his point but it could've been a lot worse for everyone. Did anyone have a beer in hand as well and not get nailed for open container?

Bummed you were the one he made an example of, Spigot, but it sounds like you realize you were in the wrong and owned up to it.

And yes, I'm one of those sissies that wear my PFD even where it's not required.

-AH
 

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I strongly disagree. You are more likely to need help/rescued without the proper gear and that puts others in danger.
You can't quite strongly disagree all you want. The act of not putting a PFD on does not increase the chances you will need help or rescue. Unless something happens.

If something else occurs that could affect the equation.

I also boat solo in a raft and have in the past in a kayak. How do you calculate that? If no one knows where you disappeared you cannot increase the need for rescue.
 

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I'm with Andy on this one - good for you Spigot for owning up.

My pfd never comes off til the boat's tied up - as well as any member of a trip I'm the TL for.
 

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It is a form of fascism that everyone must comply. To me wearing a PFD or a helmet when I motorcycle is a personal decision that affects no one else but me.
Of course this is only true if you are paying out of your own pocket 100% of any search and rescue costs, all medical costs, and all long term disability costs. And your above statement would not apply if you had kids or family depending on you for support. If you have insurance to cover the costs then your personal decision does affect people other than you.
 

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Carvedog- As per dictionary.com. Fascism-a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

Forcing people to wear a PFD is in no way related to fascism. It is a basic law like many others that increase public safety, just like seat belts. Maybe you abhor the forced use of them too.

"If not wearing a PFD makes me 20 seconds slower coming to someone's rescue in a group situation then that group may decide to not boat with me. I take responsibility for the personal decisions that affect me. "

Your choosing not to wear a PFD may or may not affect your ability to rescue someone else, but it makes you more likely to need to be rescued, thereby putting someone else at risk. You cannot take responsibility for anything when you are being rescued. You will not pay for the actual cost of the rescue, nor can you be responsible for those who are injured.

While you are correct that most of the fatalities on rivers this year were people who had PFD's on, that does not correlate to the relative safety of PFD's. If less people wore pfd's there surely would have been many more deaths.

While I can appreciate your desire to not be forced to wear a PFD, I cannot agree that it does not affect others if you choose to not wear one. Your actions are not merely affecting you, but everyone on your trip and any potential rescuer.
 

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Man, ticketed for not wearing a PFD on that section?! I'm glad they never saw my trip on there.
Other than one rapid there isn't even really any swiftwater...seems like overkill to me.
 

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Interesting take that so many here know what's best for everyone else. If you where your jacket while hovering over the john - so be it. If it's crammed in your dry box, so be it. It is far more likely I'll die on the highway on the way to the river than it is that I'll drown - with our without a pfd. Enjoy life, worry less.
 

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I just don't want to have to ruin my buzz by having to rescue some yayhoo who decided they were too cool for their PFD. :D

But if you boat solo and die solo, it only affects me when they increase regulation because of the selfish people's mistakes.
 

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Of course this is only true if you are paying out of your own pocket 100% of any search and rescue costs, all medical costs, and all long term disability costs. And your above statement would not apply if you had kids or family depending on you for support. If you have insurance to cover the costs then your personal decision does affect people other than you.
I'm with you on the motorcycle reference as the risk of debilitating head trauma that I might have to pay for goes up immensely without one. If the outcome were binary (i.e., either you are fine when you wreck without a helmet or you die), they the argument holds that the decision affects only you. In the case of motorcycle helmets, it is not binary and therefore does affect others. However, I am wondering on the PFD. Seems to me you are likely to simply die without one in a serious incident. Not seeing the scenario where you survive, but require serious long-term medical care because of not wearing a PFD. Given that fact pattern, I would be opposed to ticketing someone for not wearing a PFD. Seems like they are truly just risking themselves, for which to government shouldn't protect you from your own stupidity. Even if they risk the lives of someone boating with them due to needing to be rescued, perhaps that person shouldn't be boating with someone that chooses not to wear a PFD; or if they do, then they accept he risk they might have to take extraordinary risks in a rescue.
 

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As someone who has had to recover bodies out of the river and likely will again, I can tell you that not wearing a pfd does have a profound effect on others.

If you would lift your head out of the bucket of self righteous ignorance you have it in you may see that there are other humans on the planet beside yourself.

We do live in a civilized society, whether you watch fox news and glenn beck or not. This is America, it is a country of rules. If you don't like it feel free to take your "patriot" self and find another country, or just come out and say it and call for open revolution, it is what the "personal freedom" crowd has been wanting for a long time (7 years) anyway.

Back to the sidelines for me......


I'm with you on the motorcycle reference as the risk of debilitating head trauma that I might have to pay for goes up immensely without one. If the outcome were binary (i.e., either you are fine when you wreck without a helmet or you die), they the argument holds that the decision affects only you. In the case of motorcycle helmets, it is not binary and therefore does affect others. However, I am wondering on the PFD. Seems to me you are likely to simply die without one in a serious incident. Not seeing the scenario where you survive, but require serious long-term medical care because of not wearing a PFD. Given that fact pattern, I would be opposed to ticketing someone for not wearing a PFD. Seems like they are truly just risking themselves, for which to government shouldn't protect you from your own stupidity. Even if they risk the lives of someone boating with them due to needing to be rescued, perhaps that person shouldn't be boating with someone that chooses not to wear a PFD; or if they do, then they accept he risk they might have to take extraordinary risks in a rescue.
 
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