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Discussion Starter #1
I'll restrain myself from using the kind of language proportionate to my rage at this small and destructive man, now lobbing another phony "energy independence" bomb at Desolation Canyon.

Bureau Proposes Opening Up Utah Wilderness to Drilling - washingtonpost.com

The federal Bureau of Land Management is reviving plans to sell oil and gas leases in pristine wilderness areas in eastern Utah that have long been protected from development, according to a notice posted this week on the agency's Web site.
The proposed sale, which includes famous areas in the Nine Mile Canyon region, would take place Dec. 19, a month before President Bush leaves office. The targeted areas include parts of Desolation Canyon, White River, Diamond Mountain and Bourdette Draw.
The bureau has sought to open these public lands to energy exploration since 2003, though it had earlier classified them as having "wilderness character." But the agency has been repeatedly blocked by federal court and administrative rulings.
"Previous administrations proved that there can be a balance between wilderness protection and oil and gas development," said former bureau director Jim Baca, who served under former President Clinton, in a statement. "Unfortunately, the Bush Administration has worked tirelessly to appease the oil and gas industry no matter the cost to our national heritage of wild and untamed places."
Deso is one of the world's great places, as far as I'm concerned - they absolutely will not rest until it looks and smells like Houston.
 

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An article in the Post today said that Bush is trying to push through a bunch of regulations that will be hard to change once he leaves office. Lots of enviromental stuff if I remember correctly.
 

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Do we as a nation want to decrease our demand for foreign oil? or do we continue to drill in the middle east, ask your self that to start it off. lets not be selfish now, we want to decrease foreign dependency but we don't want more drilling on our own land? do you own a vehicle, how many times do you fill her up a month?
 

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by the picture in the article im positive zero rigs would be seen from the river and its a wasteland.

its utah anyways the mormans have already ruined the state.
 

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I fill my truck up about once every month and a half. Used to be about 5 times a month. If I can do it, you can too!

The more we can reduce our demand, the less we need to import. If everyone tries to reduce demand where they can, we don't need any new drilling and we probably wouldn't need middle east oil either.

Bring on the Volt and other electric cars!
 

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:rolleyes: "we want to decrease foreign dependency but we don't want more drilling on our own land?"

Yes, you nailed it! Id like to decrease our dependence on foreign fuels and not open up more lands in the us to drilling and I can think of more than a few ways to start. This isnt a black and white issue unless your primary interest is lining the pockets of big gas and oil.
 

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BROOKS YOU ARE BITCHING ABOUT IT AND LIVE IN BOULDER HOW FAR IS THE COMMUTE TO DESOLATION CANYON?

currently there really hasnt been an increase in who drives cars that use greener technologies, so speaking literally the only way to decrease is to drive less or make cars that don't run on the shit. so if people like you are still driving to desolation from boulder you don't fit the nitch, so the next answer is to drill more oil to decrease foreign dependency. did i make it black and white for you since its really that fucking easy to figure supply and demand!

id make a bet boaters drive more than skiers and bikers put together.

sounds like the blm will be leasing the land so more money to the people who take care of the putins and take outs and more oil in the us which would help decrease foreign dependency as well as put gas in your tank so people like you can drive from boulder to hit desolation. sounds okey to me and im sure you can stand to look at a rig for 30 seconds as you drive by not that big a deal.
 

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I live in Boulder so I can live and work in a community where I travel by bike everyday. Ive been to desolation a couple of times in my life and I hope to get back for a third and a fourth time but characterizing me as someone who drives there every weekend just doesnt fit the bill nor does it address the issues which you fail to recognize.

If there hasnt been an increase in the use of green automotive technologies perhaps its time to push for legislation which increases their availability and subsidizes their use....or we could keep subsidizing carbon fuels instead. Its no wonder this is such a close political race with people like you driving down the average american IQ.
 

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BROOKS IM NOTA BRAINIAC BUT IM SURE MOST AVERAGE AMERICANS CAN'T AFFORD TO DRIVE GREENER TECHNOLOGIES SPECIALLY WITH GAS AT UNDER 2.40 IN TOWN. ITS NOT PEOPLE LIKE ME THAT DRIVE THE IQ DOWN ITS PEOPLE LIKE YOU. YOU MAYNOT DRIVE THERE EVERYWEEKEND BUT SOMEBODY IS!
to be honest if anyof us were truely enviromentally savvy we would not drive to any creek besides public transportation or electric car, not happening.

70 percent of what the US uses and needs is imported. what do you think we should do now to decrease our demand for foreign oil? not drive ever again> looks like you won't see desolation that fourth time. brainiac out
 

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Discussion Starter #11
This is the same straw man people use for drilling ODCS and ANWR - it "reduces our dependency on foreign oil". More Sarah Palin mythology.

No it doesn't. It put cheaper-to-obtain oil in the hands of the oil companies, who sell it on the open market for a profit. The oil companies have 4 million acres of leased land in Utah alone that they haven't exploited. Until they pass a law that keeps every drop of US recovered oil within American borders, this "reducing our dependence" stuff is bull. The only way we stop being dependent on foreign oil is to transfiorm our economy onto renewable energies, and away from fossil fuels. Flattening every canyon or building roads and rigs in every draw or cutting down every forest doesn't change that - it just leaves us a dessicated and barren environment to live in when we get hit with the inevitable.

I vote they be forced to exhaust and clean up every single lease already granted before they start drilling and road building and otherwise flattening wild and scenic river corridors.

I live in Boulder, too, and I've been down Desolation 12 times. I'm not going to apologize for driving my truck to float down rivers, and I'm not going to equate driving my truck with the implicit approval to permanently wreck unique, fragile and irreplaceable wild lands.

The put in and take out are paid for by my permit fees and funds derived from recycled beer cans. I've paid for those. The resource recovery companies won't do anything to Deso/Nine Mile except trash it.

There are, anyway, dozens (if not hundreds) of rigs already standing on the plateau, which is essentially endless BLM wasteland. The proposal is to drill in Nine Mile Canyon and within sight and earshot of the river itself.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Dunno what happened to your response, Mike, but....

ANALYSIS-US oil firms seek drilling access, but exports soar | Markets | Reuters
WASHINGTON, July 3 (Reuters) - While the U.S. oil industry wants access to more federal lands to help reduce reliance on foreign suppliers, American-based companies are shipping record amounts of gasoline and diesel fuel to other countries.
A record 1.6 million barrels a day in U.S. refined petroleum products were exported during the first four months of this year, up 33 percent from 1.2 million barrels a day over the same period in 2007. Shipments this February topped 1.8 million barrels a day for the first time during any month, according to final numbers from the Energy Department.
The surge in exports appears to contradict the pleas from the U.S. oil industry and the Bush administration for Congress to open more offshore waters and Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to drilling.
 

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But if "drill, baby, drill" doesn't directly benefit the United States, only the oil companies, then why would we trash a wilderness area to sell the oil to a foreign country?
 

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that is something that your state governor would have to do. but to top it off your governor doesn't want any drilling in the state of colorado. period
 

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I'm all for some sort of balanced management. But having grown up there it's not a total wasteland, and just because you can't see it from the river doesn't mean we should just say f%#$ it and drill. Plus there's other issues like roads, water use and wastewater that will end up in the Green. I don't have the solution, I drive to the river to boat and I'm gonna' keep boating. If I have to pay more than I will (and I'm not exactly rich). Maybe we should try diplomacy instead of military imperialism to try and secure our needs...it might last longer than making a bunch of people pissed that we're in their country and could care less about them other than what they can give us.
 

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Our dependency on foreign oil. That is going to happen anyway. If we aren't dependent on foreign oil, it will be something else like foreign cheap labor, or foreign loans. Like Stubby says we need to learn to get along...
Gas SHOULD be expensive. We have never payed the true price of gas. Which means we never externalized the costs to our environment, our national pride, safety, sanity.
No. It is not worth sacrificing another portion of wilderness for another oil rig. Where does the insanity and gluttony stop?
 

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I'm a boater and don't drive gas guzzlers (have a Honda Insight 60 mpg and a Honda CRV that gets 30 mpg and 25 mpg with a trailer). I limit my long-distance travels and do most of my boating close to home. So your guilt trip doesn't fly with me— I think there's way too much drilling now and the standards are way too loose.

I just did a Deso trip, and the drilling plague has spread since my last one, in 2005. They are really f-ing up that desert something awful. Roads are slashed all over the place, with zero erosion control or reclamation. They are going full bore while Bush is still in office and trying to grab still more. Going into Sand Wash we had to dodge a lot of oilfield traffic and the truckers are worse than log truck drivers— flash their brights to blind you and damn near run you off the road.

After getting back I dug a trench to lay cable for another solar array (we have one set up). Pretty tired of the corrupting influence of big oil on US politics, via Cheney and the rest of his gang. Millions of decent working people are going broke while Exxon/Mobil, Chevron, BP and the rest are raking it in.

You seem to resent people in Boulder CO driving. So— what do you drive, amigo? Care to post your mpg?
 

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GO Green now

I gotta say bull to Drill Baby Drill. You can convert YOUR vehicle to a hybrid today! My Toyota truck has seen a 35% increase gas mileage and over 50% decrease in emissions. The answer isn't to give up our wild spaces because you can't see the oil rigs from the water. Here in Montana they like to leave a swath of trees along the road while clear cutting "out of view of the river". Take a look at Nelsons Hydro-Gen home page for information on how to convert your rig to a hydrogen hybrid. We are going to run out of oil. Let's look to other alternatives that are cleaner and renewable.
 

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God Amongst Men
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they should cordon off 9 mile, but the rest of that country is a fuckin wastelend.

drill it all, fuck applying for permits, lets just open the gates and let em drill, i say

whats eastern utah ever done for you
 
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