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Discussion Starter #1
One rope bag was torn from a swimmer's boat this weekend about two or three rapids above the 18 footer. One identifying feature of the rapid is a huge (10') black dagger looking rock sticking out of the middle, left-side of the rapid. It was enclosed in it's bag when last sighted. FYI, our swimmer also sighted a bent-shaft carbon fiber paddle in the same sieve he was heading towards on river left after the dagger. It sounds like it would be dangerous to retrieve, but I was running safety on the other side of the river and didn't see the sieve myself.

Second-hand, I heard that a swimmer the week before also lost a bag somewhere in the river. Since it's the kind of river that you want to scout your drops in anyway, I would suggest taking a good look for rope hazards, too.

Lastly, if you're doing the run without an experienced guide, the AAW site has some bad beta (IMO) on the takeout. I don't know where the correct takout is since I took the bad beta, but it's not at the first outhouse-looking structure you see after the Painted Wall. If you choose to hike out where I did, then you'll have a VERY long hike up the steep Warner Point Trail and end up miles from your take out vehical. Instead, keep going a few more miles on the river. . .
 

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the name of the drop with the big black dagger-rock is PRINCIPALS' OFFICE.... it is loaded with sieves and undercuts and has a nice little "room" bottom right... the pricipals office! very bad sieve-cave zone.... i spent 5 minutes trying to escape from the "office" my first run down....i will try to get the paddle out .. and i have not seen the rope bags you speak of... i have been thru 3 times since your run.. i found a teva visor, and a smalll stohlquist throw bag.. nothing else.. warner trail is the new shortcut.... it allows you to get back to a car or bicycle at High Point trailhead(3.000 vertical ft above the river).... on the south rim side.... no more chukar trail...... i got lost the first time going up.... 5 hours of nature hiking... i feel that it could be climbed in 3 hrs or less(bring a sack lunch)......in an s-6, it took 4 hours to get to the warner trail, 5 hours out and a 14 mile bike ride(1.5 hrs) back to the car at the put-in... the bike shuttle works great... no longer a need for 4 wheel drive rigs to get in-out of chukar road!!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
That's the perfect name for that rapid. A guy in our party went to the principal's office, then when we were fishing him out, he got up out of the sieve, said he was okay, that he didn't need a hand anymore, but then his foot slipped and he fell in again! Back to the principal's office!
 

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hey were you with pennings and fremont? is your name vince? sorry i missed you guys.....would have been fun.....did you really hike into montrose?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I am the one called. . .Fremont. And Milo, you are a sick F'er if you think that hike out Warner point is a short-cut. . .course, to do the Black in an S6 kind of falls into the sick F'er category anyway. Next time I do that run I want you on the team. I scouted every, single horizon line, and walked a lot. I watched everyone but Mike self-destruct in that one rapid. Yep, I'll be walking this one, too. Still probably the boating highlight of my summer though. Definitely the fishing highlight.

Maybe we could do the run together, but then trade boats for the hike out? :p
 

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hey fremont..... it really is a "short cut".... last run in the "HOLE" i traded boats with a kid under 25 yrs old( the "BLACK" is 25 and older terrain!!!)on the portage...it was still troublesome for him... his gus was a good carry... rides the shoulder well....anyhow i have carried 2 boats thu the portage before, one at a time....i would love to carry your boat out or in the portage...a good trade! i will only s-6 the HOLE at flows under 700cfs....the bigger drops, that i run, are challenging in a kids boat(190cm)loaded down with water, food and "last aid kit".....anyhow we'll get it together....mike is in on a high water run....i called him 2 days ago.....i want the russian arete and the river in a day!!! i'll carry the rope and half the rack... that mutant can carry anything else he wants or needs.....i am after a mellow "maiden voyage" , play kayaking river run, hike up warner and a nice little mtn. biking ride... i will let you know how it goes....i wish i was a better climber....would you be interested in leading me up "black Jack"? i want that climb and gulley with a river run.... fun huh? 275-1890
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Okay, you just successfully shamed me into carrying my boat, I don't make the <25 cut either so I guess I have to.

I'd be up for a Black Jack/"Hole" run in a day next spring when the days are a little longer. It sounds kind of fun actually. Does the run get significantly easier at lower flows? I think we did it at 680-ish. You could still run the eighteen footer, but an inch less water and you'd have probably endoed off it when you're bottom skidded and stopped mid-boof.
 

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ok, we're on! it does get a bit mellower but undercuts are super visable....at lower flows you teeter-toter on the slot left of the tounge that land s on rock.... it is mellow, the easiest of alll the drops... at 550cfs or less you need to portage the falls via a small crack river right... barely a boats width... it took me 1 hour to go thru this cave sieve system..it starts 10 feet from the doomy sieve-waterfall spout on river right(at the 18fter)i call it the "jurassic park" portage .... once inside the cave-ish zone you need to pull some fun bouldering moves with 20 feet of exposure....fun with a boat on your shoulder.....underclings and the like... "freehanding"......you pop out at the start of the "swHELL" portage.....we'll get it together this spring
 

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hey fremont, i scoped out the possibilities of BLACK JACK and it looks as though you'd have to get it at lower flows...the reason is, that you need to pull off a "spicy" ferry to get to the small(READ:very small) eddy at the bottom of the Chillumstone Gully... this is several feet from an unrunnable CLASS X rapid!.....at flows above 800cfs it will become impossible or at least become a "dumb guy" move! the route looks sweet, the gully looks adventurous.....retreating to the kayaks looks "good to go"....is it really a 140' rap around the large "STONE"?... is fall out of the question? i will carry the ropes and 1/2 the rack....we can reduce our weight(load) by stashing supplies at the top of the route, prior to boating.. then we could leave gear behind...... we'd need somebody to take the ropes back up to the rim.. we could light for the rest of the river run....a little "team work" and out the Warner we'd go.....or we could go all the way to the CHUKAR TRAIL.....please put some thought into it....many options exist! overnighter or one day push.......milo
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I'm going to be in the Black climbing for a week in October and I was hoping to do some sussing myself at that time. I may even do some routes on that wall. Maybe I could do Black Jack, then we'd know what to cut off the climbing rack for a speed trip later. That week in mid-October is just going to be a climbing trip as my partner for the trip doesn't boat, yet, and I really want to pack some climbing in. A late-fall trip after that week might be an option. My next several weekends up until then are locked up. Maybe we could do it in late-October? Short days, but after my week down there climbing in mid-October I'll be tuned in and climbing fast, and you always boat fast, so maybe it would work -- especially with the swHELL portage up warner point. . .I still can't believe I'll put myself through that again. I'll ask Mike about the Chillumstone rap. I've got a 230 foot rope that'd rap 115', but that's far short of 140. Maybe it'd go with a little down climbing.
 

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come on! down climbing? i was once told that you could crawl under it now.... do yo really need to rap? or do climbers do it for ease? Yes, i do like the idea of you eliminating some gear....look at the eddy we need to get.... it goes at low flows.. i don't know if you can paddle back upstream, once we've climbed,... to get to a point were we could safely ferry back to river right.. look at it....we ran the BLACK last year Nov. 22nd... the road to the put-in closes due to rock fall shortly after that.. maybe earlier this year because of all the rain... on sat i noticed a large amount of rockfall on the road... this was freakin' my shit when i came down it, at night, on a bicycle, in the rain with my little ZIPKA reading headlamp....visions of "FACE PLANTS" troubled me on my descent.....all went well though....just to let you know....if you stay on the path(like a true pilgrim) warner isn't that bad....river to bike in 2hrs 15 mins.......we can do it!
 

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chukar trailhead

the true take out is at least 1 hour past the painted wall....more like 1.5+.. if you miss this one you'll be in the gunny gorge.... there is a outhouse and usually rafts at the takeout eddy.... it smells like horse piss as well..... yuk! you can get out chukar as fast as 1/2 hour or as slow as 3 hours...it's only 850-900 vert ft on an excellent trail....
 
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