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Discussion Starter #1
Once was an experienced paddler in big water and river running (paddled the Gauley, Ocoee, New River, Chattooga, Cheat, Nolichucky, etc in Dagger Crossfire). Now after 10 years, getting back into the sport and looking for a river runner that I can surf/play a little but also can get into creekin with.
Considering the Dagger Mamba and Juice, Wavesport Diesel, and Pyrannha i:4 and h:3. Any thoughts on these boats or others would be greatly appreciated!
 

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In my opinion Dagger doesnt make a good allround boat anymore. Out of those choices, I would choose the Diesel or I4 but I wouldnt creek in an I4.
 

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The Diesel and the Mamba both fall into the boat category you are describing. They both run rivers well, surf well, and will allow for moderate creeking. If front surfs, back surfs, and spins are your idea of play boating then these boats will perform well. If you are looking for more playboating then there are boats out there but you would not want to creek any of them. The difference between the Diesel and Mamba...

...well the Diesel seems to be the faster boat which can be a good thing or a bad thing. The Mamba has slightly more stern rocker and in my opinion boofs easier. Demo them both to decided which will work best for you.

Charles
 

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boc123 Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:13 am Post subject:

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The Diesel and the Mamba both fall into the boat category you are describing.

Then again, so does the H3, but I guess BOC doesn't carry those so you shouldn't consider it.
 

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If you hold an h3 235 and a diesel 75 side by side they are almost identical except the 75 has more volume. The 245 is absurdly large. So if you are comparing 235 to diesel 75 then maybe just go by the outfitting and volume. Both are fine boats. Some people dont like them in Colorado due to the fact that we dont have much water and you can catch an edge on a rock easily and rounder hull boats are desired for that reason such as the nomad. I went with the Diesel.
 

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gh said:
If you hold an h3 235 and a diesel 75 side by side they are almost identical except the 75 has more volume. The 245 is absurdly large.
I think gh is one size off. I'm not sure of the volume of the 235, but 245 is 67 gallons...less than the Diesel 75, which is 75 gallons. The 255 IS very large by comparison to the 245, 80 gallons, but not so large compared to the Diesel 75.

Back to the original question...what's the best all-around boat for river running, play, and creeking? I actually opted for the H3, precisely because I wanted edges so that the handling would be more similar to my playboat, which I paddle 95% of the time. However, given your experience with displacement-hulled boats, that edginess wouldn't be an assett, so the Diesel would probably be a good choice.

I'm not sure that's really a fair question, though. No one boat will do everything you ask, at least not very well. Typically, you can get a boat that will play and run rivers well (e.g., EZ/BigEZ, EZG series, I4, etc.) or run rivers and creek a little (e.g., Diesel, H3, Mamba, etc.). But creeking and play are at opposite ends of the boat design spectrum.

Think about what you really plan to paddle. If you're out of practice and have to re-learn a lot, you may not be creeking any time soon...most Colorado creeking is in the IV+ to V range. In my opinion, a river-running playboat will give you the most mileage. However, if you're serious about creeking, you should get a boat designed for it, and forget about a boat with much playability.
 

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Paul, you are correct. I did mean the 245 and 75. I fall inbetween the 255 and 245 and felt the diesel was just right. I did however find the edges to be very similar between the H3 and Diesel.
 

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Lil Joe or a Hoss depending on size is also in this category. Can't compare to the others but I have spun both at South Canyon at low flows and the Hoss was my creeker until the Jefe came out. All are in the category and it will be a matter of body fit and availability.

It sounds like you are thinking in the right direction but one thing I have noticed is that the high volume play boats handle water well (Barrell Springs, Crystal Narrows, Gore) you just don't want to drop a lot of vertical in them.

Peter
 

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Diesel

Go with the Diesel. You'll have no regrets.
 

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I know I'm gonna get some sh%t for this, but the best all around boat it the old Pyrana Attack. It can creek easy V, throw ends, run rivers, and you can get one for about $150. This is depending on your size of couse, but the Attack would be my first choice for someone that wants it all for a cheap price...if you can find one.
word,
trey
 

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RPM or Kendo

The Dagger RPM is an amazing all around boat. Its a bit of an older school boat but they are still awsome. Or else there is the Kendo.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
update on Best all around boat

I deviated from my original line of thinking and just bought a Wavesport EZG50 - it kicks ass. Stable, fast and able to do cartwheels, squirts, etc. in Class II. I just read another post where someone said they'd also take it down the Grand Canyon. The only thing I won't try in it is steep creekin'
 

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Get a Diesel or even creekier boat to complement it when you can ... I'm a fairly new whitewater paddler and have grown into my Diesel 65 (I'm 5'11"/170) nicely. I am actually looking to go in the opposite direction and get and EZG50 (or very similar boat) for play/surf and making smaller/mellower rapids and flows much more fun. The Diesel is awesome in big water with high flow and big waves (and for bigger drops)-- buoyant and stable yet quite maneuverable and fast ... comfy and fun!
 
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