Assigned camps on the Rogue

There is something wrong when the outfitter rabbit shows up and starts unloading before the group from the night before is still in camp. Essentially by using this tactic the commercial trips are informally reserving the camps At the very least I would propose that from June to Labor Day the BLM and outfitters get together and assign camps for the outfitters then post the week's worth of camps when you go check in. At least that way you know where the outfitters are planning on going and can plan accordingly.

Some may get pissed because those F-ing commercial trips got the camp I wanted, but on my last trip I talked quite a bit with the commercial trips and we had agreed on camps. The commercial trip took the camp I wanted because a private was in the camp they wanted. At least it would be nice to know ahead of time that the commercial trip was there and to plan accordingly.

Camp running (by outfitters or private boaters) used to be prohibited. I'm not sure that the rules have ever changed, but it is clear that if the rule still exists, it isn't being enforced. Last time I ran the Rogue, I got into a campsite race with ARTA's camp runner (and won). When we informed the kid that he was violating the rules, he just looked at us dumbly and said that they do it all the time.

When I was an outfitter on the Rogue (a quarter-century ago) we could be sanctioned pretty severely for camp-running. We never did it. Most of our permits were for small group starts, so we couldn't economically take a space for a paying customer and use it for a camp runner.

Still, I was always skeptical about assigned campsite rules until I actually experienced it as a private boater on the Middle Fork and Main Salmon. The system isn't perfect (we arrived at one Main Salmon camp to find that it had been given away twice; and I think that 7:00 is too late to hold camps) but despite its shortcomings, it does take the stress out of watching other groups go past while you're stopped for lunch.

Duce said:

Mogur,

What do you think about the commercial trips being assigned larger camps? Whiskey Creek, Tyee, Mule Creek, Takama etc?

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In the old days, guides set up semi-permanent "guide camps" at key locations along the river. Some were on public land, some on private. But when the government took over the river in the late 60s and early 70s, the guide camps were all taken down, and most of the private land was acquired by the government.

The problem with your idea is that three or four commercial trips launch every day. They're not going to want to share camps with each other, any more than we do as private boaters. Generally, every outfitter has his own favorite camps (My guides preferred Doe Creek, Hewitt Creek, and Brushy Bar for 3-night trips). But the guides also know of camps that private boaters, who are less familiar with the river, may not know about. They may not be the preferred camps, but there always was a place to stop.

I think that what's happening now is that the internet has made information about these "unknown" campsites available to all, and that may contribute to the feeling by outfitters that they need to use camp runners.

I would think that outfitters might welcome a reservation system that would eliminate the need for camp runners. Camp running isn't cheap. It requires an extra guide, an extra boat, and takes a permit space away from a paying customer. Those costs have to be passed on to the remaining customers.

The big drawback is the time it takes to do the campsite lottery every morning. Last time I went down the Middle Fork, it took most of an hour--but my group got every campsite we wanted (because our float plan was a little bit out of sync with most others, and because we took smaller sites).

A long time ago we would run a boat ahead to reserve a camp for our commercial groups, in particular on Gore. We generally had large groups and the Bench, upper bench, and lone tree were the sites big enough for our mobs.
I know it pissed off the other outfitters; it got so bad the joke was who would win the sprint from pump house to bench.
No apologies; we ran large groups, we all but pioneered the Gore range, and it was indeed a hassle if you rolled into the bench and found a one boat 3 person party daring you to touch ground. Especially when you knew already another group was headed for Lone Tree.
That said, we would share with other private groups, depending on their beer stocks and male/female ratios. We'd even share with commercial groups, with the understanding that the sales pitch was forbidden, and again with a strict eye to the male/female ratio.

A permit system avoids the unpleasantness of camp running; no matter what camp you end up with, you at least can plan accordingly.

For as much of a hassle as the rangers can be in some ways in Dinosaur, having your camps assigned before you even show up at the boat ramp really helps all the groups on the river get along. Kelly can look at group sizes and trip lengths of more than one day at a time, and does an admirable job of giving both commercial and private an equal shot at the "best" camps. Waaaaaay lower stress while on the river than any first-come first-served system. I'm a fan, and wish it was in place on every permitted river. I did a Rogue in March (March! In Oregon!) and it was still full of passive-aggressive "I'm staying here, what about you" moves and then a group that changed their plan after we talked got upset and yelled at us for a while when we took a big camp that they had told us they would skip. Sheesh... Assign 'em all!