[Rightoarleft]

After several years of going down the Middle Fork Salmon and wearing my helmet for the class IV rapids this year I learned a hard lesson. Low water class III not wearing my helmet....been through this rapid several time and find myself having to go around a stuck raft. Long story short, spun, glanced a rock and I see my wife launching off the side of the boat, split second later the frame cracks me on the head, splits my head open and I bleeding like a stuck pig. I was lucky I didn't fracture my skull or was knocked unconscious. Wearing my bonnet from here on.

Yep. I've learned over the years that rating has little to do with risk of capsize or injury. Matter of fact, I could make the case that lower class water is more hazardous because we let our guard down. I can't count how many class II near flips I've encountered thinking it's just a big riffle. And I'm thoroughly convinced that scouting is more likely to produce injury than the rapid. Poor landings, steep climbs, hopping wet boulders, poison ivy. I pretty much wear my helmet from camp to camp on small rivers, and keep it handy for big.

 

[Deagol]

the solution to all this is simple: they need to build more rivers!

 

[MT4Runner]

Have you ever seen any sort of marketing by Booz to suggest Booz has pushed demand for river permits? No. It's real demand, and if there is anything pushing it it's users and guide services on social media, not Booz. River permits are a rec.gov flyspeck. 90,000 campsites all over the country. That's at least some money. But it's still a flyspeck. 18 million a year for ten years? Booz has annual revenue north of 6 billion. C'mon guys. An online reservation system is not the problem.

Also, helmets are smart. No lie, the helmet posts reminded me yesterday that I should get a couple more so that there's one for each of us in my family. And so I ordered two on sale.

Not being contrarian, just discussing....
By the numbers you posted, why do you think that an $18B company has NOT had an impact on demand for multiday trips?
I do, and I think the blog post earlier does highlight that BAH is very good at marketing, and made rivers very appealing to the Instagram crowd...campsites and their other income streams aside.

the solution to all this is simple: they need to build more rivers!

Hell, we built tens of thousands of dams, why not rivers?!!

Canals all over California, they need to make them runnable!!

 

[Junk Show Tours]

I hereby propose that we should build a river right through the middle of Lake Fowell.

 

[markhusbands]

By the numbers you posted, why do you think that an $18B company has NOT had an impact on demand for multiday trips?

Well, how did they have an effect? What exactly has Booz done to increase demand for multiday trips? I'm not denying that the transactions in terms of entering the lottery are easier than once upon a time, but that was true before the current contract to Booz started (and that's not exactly change in demand). So what has Booz done to make more people want to go on river trips?

 

[MT4Runner]

They sent a reminder email to all the people who had booked CAMPSITES, not just prior river lottery applications.

It's good business on their part. But it sucks for us.

 

[markhusbands]

So, in all seriousness, while we won't be building any more rivers, what could be done to a limited degree is allowing for the use of more camp locations or reorganizing some existing camps to accommodate more people. There are social and environmental impacts of such actions, and it provides no final fix to the shortage of these recreation opportunities relative to demand (because there isn't one), but it could marginally increase capacities for some rivers, and could be examined through agency river planning processes.

 

[MT4Runner]

In all seriousness...that's a really good solution that could work quite well on some rivers.

As an aside, rivers like the Middle and the Main probably had more of an impact from human use during the mining and homesteading days than they do today.

 

[markhusbands]

They sent a reminder email to all the people who had booked CAMPSITES, not just prior river lottery applications.

It's good business on their part. But it sucks for us.

I don't think that increases demand in any real way. That's just using a huge database of emails to send a notice. I personally don't think a reminder email about an upcoming lottery sent to a person that doesn't own a boat or know how to use one drives them to buy a boat and begin using rivers. But people are buying boats and deciding to use rivers because there is real, growing demand for all sorts of outdoor recreation activities. The boat and skills are the real barriers to entry, not the lottery. There you have my case, sir!

That said, I do think that lottery systems should be modified such that cancellations are restricted to initial lottery entrants, just to reduce the chaos and randomness and gaming of cancellation systems.

 

[Bootboy]

I hereby propose that we should build a river right through the middle of Lake Fowell.

That’s Floyd Dominy Reservoir to you, good sir.

 

[Junk Show Tours]

That’s Floyd Dominy Reservoir to you, good sir.

Once we turn it into a river we can call it Glen Canyon.

 

[NathanH.]

Also, correct my if I am wrong for those really hoping to get on the Main Salmon, you can start your trip on the S. Fork of the Salmon, which doesn't have a lottery system and then float onto the main without a lotteried permit legally. Yes the water is more challenging on the S. Fork but if you're up to the water it's the easiest way to go.

 

[MT4Runner]

You can also run the Lower salmon starting at Vinegar and run all the way to Heller without a permit ~130 miles
(July or later so you're not running Slide at peak flows...only crazy people would try that)

 

[Anchorless]

There is nothing naive or simplistic about the idea of individual Liberty. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t have a lottery system to limit the number of users at a resource. That’s a necessary evil. But the idea of “there oughtta be a law” never ends. We all have the right to go out and recreate as we see fit, even if it’s putting us at risk. That’s as it should be.
I’d rather see the problem minimized through education, free courses, and peer pressure than another uniform wearing goon in jack boots asking for my papers. We can solve the problem amongst our selves without another “system” being created to cost us. Authority lives to create another reason to give themselves more authority.
“The bureaucracy is expanding, to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy” comes to mind.

I mean, this is the type of naive and simplistic crap I'm talking about. It's just a talking point and rhetoric.

We have a public process for creating laws. We have the ability to review administrative process. Rules and laws aren't made in a void, and certainly not just for its own sake.

The bureaucracy expands because our population is expanding, our impacts are expanding, our conflicts are expanding. Bureaucracy is a necessary evil to control or mitigate those conflicts and those impacts.

We see it play out in real time all around us. Look at Texas and what a deregulated energy system has caused. So now everyone is pointing the finger at government and asking "where were you and why weren't you there for us?" Guess what the result will be: more regulation, more laws, more bureaucracy.

I see the same thing playing out in my city. Miles and miles of public access trails that are lightly managed. The only "rules," per se, is pick up your mess and don't go on muddy or wet trails. Well, our population is expanding and because of that trail use is increasing, and now we have hundreds of dummies who don't know or don't abide by the rules, and so our trails are getting destroyed. Guess what the result will be: more regulation and more bureaucracy.

People are idiots and will almost always do the wrong thing, so we have, collectively, a government of idiots to try and reign that idiocy in just a bit. Libertarianism doesn't work, and its just an excuse for cranky old white dudes to kvetch about their "freedumbs" and crap. As if we're so oppressed.

 

[Anchorless]

Being emergency medical services all my life, I sympathize with your statement. But at the end of the day, you can't fix stupid.

No, but that's what the court system is for. Victims or their families will sue everyone and anyone they can. Businesses, organizations, government, even individuals will change their behavior not because it necessarily the right thing to do, but to avoid the risk of litigation.

 

[[email protected]]

I don't think that increases demand in any real way. That's just using a huge database of emails to send a notice. I personally don't think a reminder email about an upcoming lottery sent to a person that doesn't own a boat or know how to use one drives them to buy a boat and begin using rivers. But people are buying boats and deciding to use rivers because there is real, growing demand for all sorts of outdoor recreation activities. The boat and skills are the real barriers to entry, not the lottery. There you have my case, sir!

That said, I do think that lottery systems should be modified such that cancellations are restricted to initial lottery entrants, just to reduce the chaos and randomness and gaming of cancellation systems.

I wish to disagree with you on the cancellations are restricted to initial lottery entrants modification. At this point and time I only apply for the trips with dates I really want (I'm not rich). Then later search for cancelations on most any river that will fit my schedule to raft when I do not win. So instead of applying to every lottery I just do a few favorites. If I could not pick up cancelations on rivers I did not apply for originally than I would be forced to spend more money than I really can afford on the lotteries to begin with.

 

[MT4Runner]

I mean, this is the type of naive and simplistic crap I'm talking about. It's just a talking point and rhetoric.

We have a public process for creating laws. We have the ability to review administrative process. Rules and laws aren't made in a void, and certainly not just for its own sake.

The bureaucracy expands because our population is expanding, our impacts are expanding, our conflicts are expanding. Bureaucracy is a necessary evil to control or mitigate those conflicts and those impacts.

I would also argue that our government is wholly out of touch with the people it is supposed to be serving and that bureaucracy grows out of proportion with the rate of expansion of our population.

People are idiots and will almost always do the wrong thing, so we have, collectively, a government of idiots to try and reign that idiocy in just a bit. Libertarianism doesn't work, and its just an excuse for cranky old white dudes to kvetch about their "freedumbs" and crap. As if we're so oppressed.

And more than a few idiots go into "public service" and promulgate laws for the government. Who reins in the government idiocy?

I'm all for social services and helping those who cannot help themselves, but I'd rather see those decisions go through my state capitol (or better yet my County) and have a more direct and substantial impact on the people who need help rather than it flowing through myriad faceless bureaucrats and very little trickling down to the people in need.

 

[Wallrat]

Nasty little feline killing machines lol

My dog eats cats. A nasty little canine killing machine.

 

[Wallrat]

Me too (just the Utah rivers). The river permit system is completely out of date and contributes to the scarcity mentality. You want to go on a river trip, so you don't just apply for the trip you want, you apply for EVERY trip. then, to be extra sure, you get everyone going on your trip to apply for every river. No wonder it's impossible for any of us to win a lottery.

The GC was the worst. It's still horrendous, but not the 20 year wait it used to be. I think the idea of weighting the lottery is going to have to happen on other rivers, too, and on any river where there's not the "Ultimate Life-List Experience" crap that's attached to the Grand, the policy might actually work.

That’s exactly what we did. Everyone applied, the dog, the cat, the horses...everyone . And all denied.

 

[MNichols]

No, but that's what the court system is for. Victims or their families will sue everyone and anyone they can. Businesses, organizations, government, even individuals will change their behavior not because it necessarily the right thing to do, but to avoid the risk of litigation.

I'll certainly admit we live in a litigious society, but you still can't fix stupid...