Rower's seat vs sitting on padded dry box - Page 7 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #61
 
GeoRon's Avatar
 
Golden, Colorado
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Now that's what I call proper bait.

Ya dude, you are right about "one" thing. They don't look as nice after they've been probing the bottom of the river. But I guess people who row sitting on a cooler have to worry about being upside down more often than people secured in rowing position by a seat

I recognize your concern about the captains bag. They were junk. A result of neglect by the previous owners in my opinion. They are nearly bomb proof now. I am the person who bomb-proofed them. The seamstress had dropped the stitch count to under 4 per inch to speed construction and improve the price point which was truly not understanding the nature of its use. I implemented upping the stitch count to nearly 8 per inch and back-stitched/double stitched as necessary. I completely restructured the 1 inch webbing skeleton to overlap seams. I backed the zipper with 1 inch webbing. I beefed up the zipper and for that matter all zippers used by DRE. And we implemented the use of double layer Phifertex Plus in the bottom of the Captain's Bag and elsewhere. I can't remember if they implemented my recommendation for a grommet drain hole in the base of the Captain's Bag or not. Probably not.

If you have an issue with DRE equipment(before I left) the policy was no questioned asked repair/replacement unless it was abused or still in functional condition.

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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #62
 
Salida, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azpowell View Post
yeah dude first thing you do is throw it in the trash, then you put a pad on your cooler/drybox then you sit on it...

saying they sell a bunch really doesn't say much, i'm sure they sale a bunch of those dre captains bags and they are junk...

on a side note how do they fair upside down while bouncing down the river? i imagine if your geometry is 100%dependent on a mesh seat that sticks up off the frame almost 2 feet... eh nevermind i'm sure ill witness it someday

Well put. Everytime I see one of those I look at it wonder how one could actually row the boat, and putting the rower SO high up above the boat, looks like it'd be more of a launch pad than a seat.

When DRE was owned by Yeager and D9er they had a seat like that, but the bottom of the seat actually sat on the drybox or cooler, and didn't lift the rower up into space, more like 2 inches.

IIRC when Prosser and Wolfe bought DRE they changed the design (for the worse) and AAA copied it along with a few others.

Like so many other things in this world, just cause they make and sell it doesn't mean it's a good idea.



Again, my 2
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #63
 
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Golden, Colorado
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My first comment on this thread stated that this is an old topic that will always get the same answers. My answer never changes. I don't expect anyone to change theirs. Really!

Every time this and other debatable topics reappear it is to the benefit of Mtn Buzzs' life and livelihood. Which I consider important. I know of no better mechanism of information exchange for us since GCPBA went stale.

It is also possible that new members(new boaters?) may not have been tuning in last year, the year before, the year before that, etc when this topic previously came up. It is to their benefit also.

Since I'm retired I don't mind supporting MB and keeping this spirited debate going while in the background my hobby churns to completion (the river flow report and river forecast). If the topic goes stale I will tune out but so far new angles of discussion keep popping up.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #64
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoRon View Post
Now that's what I call proper bait.

Ya dude, you are right about "one" thing. They don't look as nice after they've been probing the bottom of the river. But I guess people who row sitting on a cooler have to worry about being upside down more often than people secured in rowing position by a seat

I prefer my box and pad to a seat. I figure the lower the center of gravity the better for stability in big water. I wouldn't say you are more secure in a seat, in fact I would argue the opposite. I look at those DRE seats and folks with gear stacked to the sky and have to wonder what they are thinking.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #65
 
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I thought it was common knowledge that the seat height should be adjusted. Apparently not.

The seat height is part of the dialing in process just like the tower height and tower placement, which I and DRE always emphasize. Better to be high and cut down than not high enough in the first place. You can and should adjust the height. In a chop saw tubular aluminum cuts like butter. DRE is happy to cut the legs and redrill the clip holes on the seat for free. Just don't ask them to put 2 inches back on.

I personally like a higher seat(not original height). It increases the angle of entry of my oars which improve the power and distance of stroke(prevents lily dipping). It allows me to make a stroke on the higher side when the boat is pitched at angle or when the oars center of rotation is in a wave trough. I have frequently heard the comment "I am missing strokes" because I'm not able to get my oars in the water. This is frequently fixed by lowering the towers or raising the seat(not possible after it is already cut to low).

I don't like to have a cooler or a box beneath me. I prefer to be able if necessary to push my oar handle down into the space adjacent to and below my seat so that I can clear obstacles quickly. I've witnessed many people knocked out of their seat or an oar pulled from their hands or blades broken by a wave or obstacle(rock) because at the last second they were not able to raise their blade high enough due to a cooler or dry box beneath them.

I bought and still have Dennis and Greg's original flip seat that I bought in about 1986, perhaps 87. I used it for years. However, the curvature of the bend of the legs impinged upon a square edged dry box or cooler which forced cross bars to be further apart wasting space beneath the cross bar. Filling that wasted space beneath cross bars was one of the primary reasons for my original cross bar bag. I sewed up eight of them for my two catarafts in about 1988. I redesigned it for DRE several years ago. I wanted to name it the "scrotum, that which dangles between", but they didn't go for it. Probably for the better. Here is a picture of the original scotum, ah, cross bar bag. The original bag was designed to hold precisely, tightly four 12 packs of beer, or was it three.
https://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/...p-99371-2.html

Just to set the record straight, if sitting closer to the top of the cooler is preferred, you can cut the legs down on the DRE Captains seat and let it be flush atop a cooler or dry box just like the original Yeager seat. That I think should not be too much of a stretch of ones imagination to know(bait, bait. At least in the case of the Prosser version it will not damage an underlying box or cooler. I give credit to Mike for that and many other things. He had a considerable engineering background. I'll leave it at that.

Also, everyone(DRE, I believe AAA, even finally NRS) makes a plate aluminum flip bracket that mounts a low or high back seats flush on top of the cooler. DRE's has a version with a foot that comes to rest on a rearward crossbar so that the weight of the seat and motions of the oarsperson does not damage the underlying dry box or cooler. I think this is a preferred solution to mounting a seat directly to you dry box or cooler which I've seen many times.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #66
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverwild View Post
and folks with gear stacked to the sky and have to wonder what they are thinking.
I guess they are thinking, in the case of a multi-day trip, someone has to get this gear down the river (if someone else is not doing their share).

I will agree that stacking to the sky and overloading the rear of the boat is a very bad practice that will bite you in the stern someday. However, for you to automatically associate this "problem" with a DRE seat is very myoptic. If you look closer you will see that this is a problem regardless of seat presence. Some people even stack gear high to provide a back rest for them while sitting on a cooler or dry box. A seat negates that necessity.

Hopefully, people know to counter that rear weight as much as possible with heavy items in the bow such as water jugs, containerized beverages, fire-pan, passengers, etc. Hopefully passengers know to be proactive and weight the bow(high-side) if necessary.

But agreeing with your Riverwild, frequently I will see sky high gear in back and an empty bay in front(even no passengers). On the Grand, such a situation is a rear flip waiting to happen.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #67
 
Calgary, Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoRon View Post
I thought it was common knowledge that the seat height should be adjusted. Apparently not.



The seat height is part of the dialing in process just like the tower height and tower placement, which I and DRE always emphasize. Better to be high and cut down than not high enough in the first place. You can and should adjust the height. In a chop saw tubular aluminum cuts like butter. DRE is happy to cut the legs and redrill the clip holes on the seat for free. Just don't ask them to put 2 inches back on.



I personally like a higher seat(not original height). It increases the angle of entry of my oars which improve the power and distance of stroke(prevents lily dipping). It allows me to make a stroke on the higher side when the boat is pitched at angle or when the oars center of rotation is in a wave trough. I have frequently heard the comment "I am missing strokes" because I'm not able to get my oars in the water. This is frequently fixed by lowering the towers or raising the seat(not possible after it is already cut to low).



I don't like to have a cooler or a box beneath me. I prefer to be able if necessary to push my oar handle down into the space adjacent to and below my seat so that I can clear obstacles quickly. I've witnessed many people knocked out of their seat or an oar pulled from their hands or blades broken by a wave or obstacle(rock) because at the last second they were not able to raise their blade high enough due to a cooler or dry box beneath them.



I bought and still have Dennis and Greg's original flip seat that I bought in about 1986, perhaps 87. I used it for years. However, the curvature of the bend of the legs impinged upon a square edged dry box or cooler which forced cross bars to be further apart wasting space beneath the cross bar. Filling that wasted space beneath cross bars was one of the primary reasons for my original cross bar bag. I sewed up eight of them for my two catarafts in about 1988. I redesigned it for DRE several years ago. I wanted to name it the "scrotum, that which dangles between", but they didn't go for it. Probably for the better. Here is a picture of the original scotum, ah, cross bar bag. The original bag was designed to hold precisely, tightly four 12 packs of beer=, or was it three.

https://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/...p-99371-2.html



Just to set the record straight, if sitting closer to the top of the cooler is preferred, you can cut the legs down on the DRE Captains seat and let it be flush atop a cooler or dry box just like the original Yeager seat. That I think should not be too much of a stretch of ones imagination to know(bait, bait. At least in the case of the Prosser version it will not damage an underlying box or cooler. I give credit to Mike for that and many other things. He had a considerable engineering background. I'll leave it at that.



Also, everyone(DRE, I believe AAA, even finally NRS) makes a plate aluminum flip bracket that mounts a low or high back seats flush on top of the cooler. DRE's has a version with a foot that comes to rest on a rearward crossbar so that the weight of the seat and motions of the oarsperson does not damage the underlying dry box or cooler. I think this is a preferred solution to mounting a seat directly to you dry box or cooler which I've seen many times.
I don't think anyone is saying that a flip seat is a bad design.

But I think they are saying that a high back seat is a preferential thing, and that the design of the DRE seat is to high because of the curved pipe that needs to clear the dry box or cooler.

I see merit to being able to push against something that supports your back, but a lowback seat or a Paco pad back there seems more than enough and won't restrict me getting my upper body out of the way of the oars for a big stroke.

Best of both worlds.

The only thing that will really KEEP you in your rowers seat is a seatbelt... And that's not a great idea, is it.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #68
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupido76 View Post
I don't think anyone is saying that a flip seat is a bad design.

....

The only thing that will really KEEP you in your rowers seat is a seatbelt... And that's not a great idea, is it.
cupido76,

Quite the contrary, I can list several respondents to this thread saying very specifically that a flip seat, especially high back, especially DRE's, especially this or that seat is a bad design or flawed concept. To repeat, several respondents are even saying that a seat at all is a bad idea, which especially prompts me to categorically respond.

When it comes to a seat, or not, it is a personal preference. Kayakers have universally concluded a preference, which is, a foot brace and a relatively high back seat. Even upside down in the most violent of waters they stay in their seat without a seat belt(not something I advocate in a raft if you want to keep your head about you).
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #69
 
Calgary, Alberta
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Fair point.

I guess I meant that those who use a seat don't have a problem with flip seats but don't like the DRE interpretation.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #70
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupido76 View Post
Fair point.

I guess I meant that those who use a seat don't have a problem with flip seats but don't like the DRE interpretation.
I can't pin down what you are saying enough to respond.

I will say that the "DRE interpretation" is broadly copied and a popular choice. Must be a reason. When I worked boat fitting I always said that if you want a seat that these are your choices. I never pushed one over another. At this point I'll let the sales numbers speak in its own defense. (I'm now sure to get some snarky remark from someone other than cupido76(which is why I guess we are here.)).
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