Rower's seat vs sitting on padded dry box - Page 5 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #41
 
GeoRon's Avatar
 
Golden, Colorado
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Might be OK in mild water but unless they've beefed them up they used to be fairly fragile for rowing. That is if we are talking about the same swivel chair.

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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #42
 
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Golden, Colorado
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"On the Grand I have many times FIXED disheartened oarsman's frustrations by hack-sawing down towers, "righting" un-righted oars with a cam-strap, making a seat back with duffle bags, etc. I suggest you be prepared to evaluate and do the same when situations such as this arise."

I forgot to mention, I've placed a rocket box ahead of a cross bar on the Grand to provide proper leverage against properly rearranged dry bag back support. You've never seen a happier oarswomen in your life.

For the sack of this discussion and this thread I will go beyond saying "to each their own", I will for the sack of discussion say that without proper foot and back bracing perhaps maybe you've never experienced proper cockpit geometries. Very sad situation.

Hay man, just saying. Shoot me down.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #43
 
Electric-Mayhem's Avatar
 
Lakewood, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoRon View Post
EM,

Thanks for the rest of the story. (I hope your friend is better after the evac.) It was not fair to point out the flip and say it was caused by a high back seat and then later as an after thought mention he was a complete "newb". I hope the guy was a good sport about being set up to flip in Bedrock("here take this boat and go down that river, and btw, miss the big rock"). But I'm sure there is even much more to that story(how did he do in Dubendorf?).
Its totally fair... the seat was a large contributing factor. We also didn't "throw him in" at Bedrock. The crazy dude started acting up around Nankoweap, so the "newb" guy basically started rowing that boat after that. It took a few more episodes before we eventually called for crazy dudes, who we called Spicoli, evacuation at Blacktail canyon. The guy had been acting manic the whole trip, switching from talk like "I'm such a POS, why are people always ragging on me?" and then two minutes later saying and doing things that shows why people said that kinda stuff. He had supposedly guided in Oregon somewhere, but it didn't really show since he was always a mile behind and didn't show much aptitude for reading or running rivers. He had a full meltdown at the Across from Blacktail camp and started threatening people and himself and it was clear that it wasn't safe for him to remain on the trip. I know he sent threatening texts to the TL and PH, and supposedly he got a lifetime ban from GCNP and mandatory anger management classes. I haven't heard from him since.

Back on topic... The guy who took over for the crazy dude had never rowed a raft before the GC trip, but he's a smart athletic guy. He took over that boat at Nankoweap or Kwagunt and basically rowed it the rest of the way. The owner of the raft brought two boats (the yellow one that crazy dude and newb dude rowed and a 18' for himself and another guy that shared the rowing duties) so he let his buddy row his 18' boat while he mentored newb dude for a day or two. I think he let the owner row Hance, but newb guy ran the rest of the Upper Granite Gorge, Horn, Granite, Hermit and all the smaller stuff and he did great in all of it. He also ran Dubendorf, Upset, Lava and other big rapids after Bedrock with little incident (his passenger fell out in Lava...but that wasn't his fault...she just wasn't holding on well enough).

So yeah...I guess I need to tell an overly long story to get the point across on an example of one of the downsides to high back seats and why I don't like them. I stick to my theory that the high back seat was the biggest limiting factor to him not making that line. Inexperience also played a factor, but he had been rowing that boat for over a week at that point in the trip and had done fine in other rapids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoRon View Post
EM,

Let me jump to conclusions and assume without basis the following. You don't like high back seats because in every case so far you feel confined because the boat was set up for a smaller person, or not set up properly at all. Hence, perhaps, you've never had a cockpit with a high back properly set up for your dimensions. You got something from your respected predecessor and "stuck" with it.

To be redundant, from your description of 6.1, large(barrel chested?), 30" inseam that you also likely have long arms and legs. You ain't gonna feel comfortable or capable in a cockpit(e.g. hitting your knees with oars) set up for someone 5.8 with short arms and legs. Your instant response will be, this sucks.

I think you need a good boat fitting, or perhaps not if you are happy with the boat the way you bought it without any experimentation. To each their own.

Anyway, like I said earlier, it is easier to do contortions and acrobatics on top of a cooler necessary to make a bad cockpit work as opposed to being fixed in place in a seat in a cockpit of unsuitable geometries.

To each their own.
Assuming makes an ass out of you and me you know.

Like cupido said, thats a short inseam for my height. I don't have especially long arms and legs...probably normal or short for a person my size.

Believe it or not, even without you there to hold my hand, I'm pretty good at figuring stuff out. I've built several frames from scratch (some of which I actually bent tubing for) and they work great for me and friends. I'll admit I haven't really adjusted the frame on the Avon since it worked for me from the get go. I use a low back tractor seat on one of the setups but the rest I either sit on a dry box or cooler. I use 10" DRE towers (10" tube...so another inch maybe with the DRE style oarlock fitting but a couple inches inside the Hollaender fitting too) but I've happily used 12" towers.

I use a suspended floor on all my multi-day boats and really like having the stable platform instead of a squishy raft floor that gets my feet wet when I stand in it. I've found I like to have my feet rest on the floor with my knees at a 90 degrees which means I really need to be sitting around 4" above the frame of most rafts. This means I would have to space the seat up or use a DRE style seat...and I've just never liked it.

I've definitely played with the spacing and angle of the foot bar a bunch...but I'm also not too picky about it. I think generally a 20-24" captains bay is fine, and maybe a 10-15 degree angle towards the rower. I've done it straight up and down too, but I kind of like being able to put my feet on top when I brace.

Like I said in a previous post... the boat that hit the Bedrock was well set up. No oars hitting my knees, the kickbar was spaced correctly as were the oar towers both distance and height wise. I didn't like the oars (they were cataracts with plastic blades I think). I've made that work before...but the only limiting factor for me personally in that boat was the high back seat and not being able to lean back any further then dead vertical without basically having my butt on the front edge of the seat (which pretty much negates the whole reason for having the seat there). It maybe made a little difference when pushing...but not enough to sacrifice being able to make full strokes when pulling.

None of this even takes access to boxes or coolers when you have a seat into account. Most setups with seats I've seen are a total pain in the ass and you basically have to take the seat off to get to the stuff underneath or sacrifice valuable cargo space.

As you said...to each his own... I just know what I like.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #44
 
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Golden, Colorado
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Lots of people use high back seat without problems. This "newb" did for all other rapids except Bedrock.

If a high back seat (or a cockpit geometry) is causing a chronic problem(bad runs or flipping) that you can't figure out then it is time to change things or to talk to a qualified boat fitter.

In this case you were saying that you figured out that the high back seat was the problem yet the only video evidence you presented proved otherwise from my quarter of a mile away perspective. If the group felt that the seat was a major problem why didn't the group move or remove it. Better that for this newb than letting him go on to the next possible flip like just a mile downstream at Deubendorf?

Your description of how you like your cockpit and oars is so out of the ordinary(which you admit) that it just left me to wonder.

Sorry I offended and may possibly still offend but your story did not and still doesn't jive with my thinking so that is on me and is my personal problem. I'm over opinionated perhaps.

Time to agree to disagree. I hope to share a beer or beverage with you someday. It is obvious that you are putting in a lot of good river time and it is always fun to share experiences with another salty dog.

Let me conclude for others by repeating, if a high back seat (or a cockpit geometry) is causing a chronic problem(bad runs or flipping) that you can't figure out then it is time to change things(experiment) or to talk to a qualified boat fitter. Some of the symptoms that require changing geometries or equipment are:

I must need a longer oar than normal because I don't get enough power.
I have to stand to get a good stroke.
The oars are hitting my knees.
The oars are up in my face when seated.
I think my oar must be flexing at the handle or at the blade because I'm not getting enough power with this oar.
I can't lift my oars high enough to miss 2-3 foot tall obstacles(I must ship my oars to miss them).
The stroke is not centered. Most of the circle of rotation is ahead or behind the oar tower.
My oars are heavy and I'm getting overly exhausted.
The oars are getting tangled up in my PFD.
The oars are lily dipping(skimming the surface).
The oars are pulling/popping out of the oar lock.
Rowing is stronger when faced the opposite direction in the captains bay.
Flipping or having bad lines more so than everyone else with equal experience.
I try to keep up but can't(most other things being equal).

There are other symptoms that other people can think of to add to this list I'm sure.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #45
 
bighorn1478@msn.com's Avatar
 
lafayette or Grand Lake, CO., Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoRon View Post
Lots of people use high back seat without problems. This "newb" did for all other rapids except Bedrock.

If a high back seat (or a cockpit geometry) is causing a chronic problem(bad runs or flipping) that you can't figure out then it is time to change things or to talk to a qualified boat fitter.
Some of the symptoms that require changing geometries or equipment are:

I must need a longer oar because I don't get enough power.
I have to stand to get a good stroke.
The oars are hitting my knees.
The oars are up in my face when seated.
I think my oar must be flexing at the handle or at the blade because I'm not getting enough power.
I can't lift my oars high enough to miss 2-3 foot tall obstacles(I must ship my oars to miss them).
The stroke is not centered. Most of the circle of rotation is ahead or behind the oar tower.
My oars are heavy and I'm getting overly exhausted.
The oars are getting tangled up in my PDF.
The oars are lily dipping(skimming the surface).
The oars are pulling out of the oar lock.
Rowing is stronger when faced the opposite direction in the captains bay.
Flipping or having bad lines more so than everyone else with equal experience.
I try to keep up but can't(most other things being equal).

There are other symptoms that other people can think of to add to this list I'm sure.

I think you pretty well covered it.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #46
 
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I actually forgot perhaps the most important symptom, which is, when other qualified boatmen sit in your boat and not like your geometry or rigging and are willing to say it.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #47
 
Calgary, Alberta
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BTW Electric-Mayhem... I forgot to mention that I'm pretty impressed you have over 300 river days since 2015.

I'm 99% sure we were on the same yampa trip in 2016 and you had your big Avon with you and were pretty new to the hobby. I'm the Canadian in the light grey 13' RMR.

I don't know what kind of work you do that allows you that much time away to do all those trips, but are they hiring?
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #48
 
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Lakewood, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupido76 View Post
BTW Electric-Mayhem... I forgot to mention that I'm pretty impressed you have over 300 river days since 2015.

I'm 99% sure we were on the same yampa trip in 2016 and you had your big Avon with you and were pretty new to the hobby. I'm the Canadian in the light grey 13' RMR.

I don't know what kind of work you do that allows you that much time away to do all those trips, but are they hiring?
Yep...definitely did the Yampa with you...good to hear from you again. I was relatively new to rafting but not to whitewater on that river. I had recently returned to doing rivers again though, and hadn't rowed much in a decade. I was definitely white knuckled and nervous in the service above Warm Springs at 14-15kcfs...kind of gotten over that now.

I'm self employed and my boss(me) is a total a-hole but he lets me go rafting whenever I want. Work hard play hard kinda situation. The year we did the Yampa trip I got on a Grand trip and a bunch of other stuff and it made me realize that I really enjoy the summer time and I was tired of missing out. In 2017 I said no to more work then I ever had and just went on trips a lot and ended up being on the river for 93 days over the summer. Not quite as good in 2018 but still did a Grand trip, two middle fork trips (one of which we turned down the Main too) and a bunch of other stuff.

GeoRon.... Lets review...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoRon View Post
Lots of people use high back seat without problems. This "newb" did for all other rapids except Bedrock.
I never said people didn't like it...I just gave reasons why I don't like them and backed it up with evidence


Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoRon View Post
If a high back seat (or a cockpit geometry) is causing a chronic problem(bad runs or flipping) that you can't figure out then it is time to change things or to talk to a qualified boat fitter.

In this case you were saying that you figured out that the high back seat was the problem yet the only video evidence you presented proved otherwise from my quarter of a mile away perspective. If the group felt that the seat was a major problem why didn't the group move or remove it. Better that for this newb than letting him go on to the next possible flip like just a mile downstream at Deubendorf?
Yes...and perhaps one of the answers is to stop using a high back seat. If you go back and look through the thread about half of the people say they prefer to sit on a cooler or drybox rather then a seat.

The guy rowing the boat, being relatively new, didn't really know the difference between something with a good setup and bad since the only raft he had rowed was that one and him being a strong, intelligent and athletic guy made it work up to this point.

It wasn't until after I had rowed it for a few hours that I deduced that the seat was a significant factor on why he was unable to make the move in Bedrock. We traded boats on one of the last days above Diamond, so it was pretty late into the trip by the time I knew what was up. Other people had rowed that raft in the trip and didn't say anything, so maybe I'm wrong. I just know that pulling in that boat felt like you could only get half a stroke and it was entirely down the seat.

Lastly...it wasn't his boat so making major mods to it isn't really kosher. Even had we wanted to, it had captains boxes bolted to the frame, a huge cooler and a huge kitchen box that basically locked in the Geometry. Basically the only thing you could have messed with in any major way was the oar towers which felt like they were in the right place or at least very close.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoRon View Post
Your description of how you like your cockpit and oars is so out of the ordinary(which you admit) that it just left me to wonder.

Sorry I offended and may possibly still offend but your story did not and still doesn't jive with my thinking so that is on me and is my personal problem. I'm over opinionated perhaps.

Time to agree to disagree. I hope to share a beer or beverage with you someday. It is obvious that you are putting in a lot of good river time and it is always fun to share experiences with another salty dog.
Well...it felt like you almost admitted that maybe some people like a different setup then you...too bad that goes out the door pretty much immediately

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoRon View Post
Let me conclude for others by repeating, if a high back seat (or a cockpit geometry) is causing a chronic problem(bad runs or flipping) that you can't figure out then it is time to change things(experiment) or to talk to a qualified boat fitter.
...or maybe a high back seat is restricting your movement and you just don't like to use one...which is fine too

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoRon View Post
Some of the symptoms that require changing geometries or equipment are:

I must need a longer oar than normal because I don't get enough power.
I have to stand to get a good stroke.
The oars are hitting my knees.
The oars are up in my face when seated.
I think my oar must be flexing at the handle or at the blade because I'm not getting enough power with this oar.
I can't lift my oars high enough to miss 2-3 foot tall obstacles(I must ship my oars to miss them).
The stroke is not centered. Most of the circle of rotation is ahead or behind the oar tower.
My oars are heavy and I'm getting overly exhausted.
The oars are getting tangled up in my PFD.
The oars are lily dipping(skimming the surface).
The oars are pulling/popping out of the oar lock.
Rowing is stronger when faced the opposite direction in the captains bay.
Flipping or having bad lines more so than everyone else with equal experience.
I try to keep up but can't(most other things being equal).

There are other symptoms that other people can think of to add to this list I'm sure.
I'll admit, a lot of those are legit problems and should probably be changed. However, I think that experimenting with Oar length can make a difference...I know it did with me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoRon View Post
I actually forgot perhaps the most important symptom, which is, when other qualified boatmen sit in your boat and not like your geometry or rigging and are willing to say it.
For the record... plenty of people have tried my setup and been fine with it. Maybe its just how I describe it, but its not far out of the norm. I'd just say that I have it setup within acceptable limits...its just at the upper limits of acceptable. My frame on the Aire 146DD has the oar towers wide enough apart that an 11' oar is within the recommended length as laid out on various oar length charts. They worked great for the Grand and even the MFS but for smaller rivers I'd probably go with the 10's. Almost switched out to the 10's part way through the first day on the MFS but we had some shit go down. My oar towers are tall...but I also sit pretty high as well so gotta cover that.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #49
 
Boise, ID
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I’ve said it before in this thread. No right. No wrong. Just personal preference. A few people will try to justify their setup so they can be “right”. I can honestly say I’d be more comfortable running my setup in heavy water than any other. If we’re on a trip together, I hope you feel the same with YOUR setup.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #50
 
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Golden, Colorado
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My apologies EM.

However, it still sounds like you are saying high back seats cause people to flip and should not be used. That is not acceptable to me.

I am surprised that it took hours for you to figure out that the cockpit was not setup right "for you". To me it just sounds like the towers were too close "for you" but maybe not for the newbe if he or others did not recognize it as a problem.

But I was not there so who am I to say. Again, my humbled apology.

Ron
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