Old Avon material questions - Page 2 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 04-29-2020   #11
Scotsman
 
Jackson, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 1982
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Old Avon - Material Questions

Hey thanks villagesmith. Appreciate the time you put into that great advice thanks.
And yes - looking forward to many years more service - amazing how many people comment on this old classic I had no idea I was buying...looks a bit tatty with the yellow rubbing strake and seam seal patches coming off. But I suppose that's 'character.

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Old 04-29-2020   #12
Scotsman
 
Jackson, Wyoming
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Thanks Driftwood - but some industrious person added a very nice SB floor to this raft before I owned it. So a bucket boat doesn't work for me as a replacement. Anyway - I've decided to live with it 'as is' after comments from other, above.
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Old 04-29-2020   #13
 
Andy H.'s Avatar
 
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
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FYI - this advice is coming from one of the most knowledgeable folks in the state with respect to raft repair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yardsells View Post
First off. Congrats. Great boat.

1. Cooper Rubber. Hypalon. Best on the planet.
2. 4844 sucks on cooper. Either Stabond or 1065. If you're used to 4844, you'll like 1065 better. I think DRE sells it as "shore" and IT sells it as 1065
3. I dunno but Inflatable Technologies has pristine new rolls of the original yellow rubstrake for your vintage I'm sure they'll sell you some.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #14
Scotsman
 
Jackson, Wyoming
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Old Avon - Material Questions

Thanks Andy,

I printed that out and put it with my repair kit. I'll be sure to get the right glue.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #15
 
Gunnison, 81230
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Post a WTB "Old Avon Rubber" thread someone in the community will get you some. I did the same 4 or 5 years back to replace some patches and a valve on an 83' and I was able to get my hands on plenty. People seem to find old Avons that are being decommissioned and they cut them up and save the material like old Carhartt pants.

One other tip - when you store your boat, if you roll it, be careful not to pinch the old recessed boots - they will crack overtime and replacing the valves is an adventure...

Have fun.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #16
Scotsman
 
Jackson, Wyoming
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Old Avon - Material Questions

Hey Thanks Erwin,

Great advice - I'll post that WTB right now...and as for rolling up my boat - alas - I've had to live without covered storage for my inflated boat for some years now...I hate to roll it up in winter - but will be careful to follow your advice on that.

See you on the river.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #17
 
caverdan's Avatar
 
C. Springs, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotsman View Post
I'll try the Shore glue on this one - but the FA4844 just doesn't set up well. As far as I know it should be a contact glue (on proper prep and waiting for the right tackiness) The glue is new and in good shape. It almost seems like it needs an accelerator, which I know it doesn't - at least from previous repairs / patch additions I've done of previous boats (NRS tubes).
You do need an accelerator with 4844 on an 84 Avon. I have an 82 and a 94 and use 4844 on them. NRS sells it. You don't need much, like 20 drops per ounce or less. I drill a hole in the top of the bottle when I first open it and tap it to a 10/24 screw so I can get back into it the next time you need to glue something. The accelerator I've noticed will last several years compared to 6 months on the glue. Always thin it a little with toluene to get it to a "run off the brush a little" consistency. Good luck. That Avon will last you many a year with a little loving.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #18
 
Calgary, Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yardsells View Post
First off. Congrats. Great boat.



1. Cooper Rubber. Hypalon. Best on the planet.

2. 4844 sucks on cooper. Either Stabond or 1065. If you're used to 4844, you'll like 1065 better. I think DRE sells it as "shore" and IT sells it as 1065

3. I dunno but Inflatable Technologies has pristine new rolls of the original yellow rubstrake for your vintage I'm sure they'll sell you some.
Wait, what?... Clifton hypalon adhesive is no good on Avon? I thought this shit was the best?

I just bought a can for my avon so I'm an little concerned.

Edit to add:... even stabond is better on Avon? I'm obviously no expert but all the reading I've done suggested stabond is a PVC-PVC glue (average), or a PVC-(something other than PVC) glue (good).

I'd love a little more info if possible, please.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #19
Scotsman
 
Jackson, Wyoming
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Old Avon - Material Questions

To be honest with you, I used Stabond initially to apply 4 D-Ring patches and they all came off so I'm staying away from that. It worked fine on my newer NRS tubes previously - which is why my initial question was - what is this material? And what's the right glue?

But the 4844, with accelerator in the third application worked just fine. It was important to rough up the tube hard with the rasping part of the tool with the wheel on it (whatever that's called) before the first coat. I put two thin coats on each side and allowed 20 minutes in the sun for them to dry - then applied the third coat with just a couple of drops of accelerator , waited until 'tacky' - and there was an immediate bond - so get it right first time!

Oh - and I put glue all over the under-side D-ring patches - NOT just on the grey surrounding part. Who knows if it made any real difference but it felt right to do so.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #20
 
Denver, Colorado
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cupido76:

1. " Wait, what?... Clifton hypalon adhesive is no good on Avon?"
I never said that. Clifton (Royal Adhesive) makes both 4844 and 1065.

2. "I thought this shit was the best?"
That's subjective. There are a lot of great adhesives out there for Hypalon. All of these adhesives have different characteristics that lend themselves to various techniques and conditions. What might be a great adhesive for me repairing all manufacturers boats in a production environment where warranty and liability for my work is at stake might not be a good choice for someone sitting on the side of the river facilitating a repair in a high humidity environment.

That being said, my original statement of "4844 sucks on cooper" is made in the context of 4844 was identified for use with Pennel in mind. Remember, Hypalon has gone generic and each manufacturer can tweak their version molecularly to suit their needs. So adhesives targeted at certain criteria may not bond as well to substrates that don't have that specific criteria.
FA1065 is a Shore company knockoff (made by RA formerly Clifton) that was (for lack of a better term) a broad spectrum mechanical adhesive which is very well suited for various rubber like formulations.

I suppose one could say that Bostik 2402 is "The Best" because that's the adhesive Avon used in production but it had its vulnerabilities and "features" that made some folks not like it.

1065 is a great 1 part adhesive solution for general purpose repairs and attachments. There are ways to improve adhesion but that is another discussion.

3. "I just bought a can for my avon so I'm an little concerned."
Of what? 1065 or 4844? Don't stress it. It's kind of like someone going camping with a new tent. They never set it up before the trip and then on their 1st night out in a rain storm, they expect to be able to efficiently set up their tent.
Experiment with what you have. Get to know it before you need it.
If you're a 4844 guy and can fix your shit, then don't sweat it. If you've never worked with 4844 either in 1 or 2 part systems, my professional opinion is you'll have a lot more fudge factor room with a less picky adhesive like 1065. The goal is to get home.

4. "Edit to add:... even stabond is better on Avon? I'm obviously no expert but all the reading I've done suggested stabond is a PVC-PVC glue (average), or a PVC-(something other than PVC) glue (good)."
Stabond 148 works great on many polymers. Notice i said polymers. Not just PVC, TPU, CSM, CS. I will say that Stabond is not mechanical like 4844 or 1065 and is also a 2 part system. There are techniques that lend its use to folks with a bit more experience with adhesives and boat repair that might exclude it from most folks.

Summary:
There are a lot of factors that go into adhesive choices and their efficacy. What might work for 1 person may not work for another.
My advice is to grab what you think will work for your needs and practice with it.
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