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Flip seat opinions

10K views 32 replies 13 participants last post by  wack 
#1 ·
This season I noticed I was losing gear space under my seat cause I had my thwart inflated. As well, I noticed that when paddling hard into a rapid I was standing to power forward. My thoughts are to put a nrs flip seat on top of a cooler (allowing more space for beer). I am also hoping that the higher Center of gravity will be a more powerful position to be rowing from, thus making paddling in big water more solid. Any pros or cons to the flip seat for paddling big water? I have a low back nrs seat and I just found that I always wanted to be standing while on the oars.
 
#2 ·
I have been using a flip seat bracket on my boats for years and like you I use low back seat. Mine sits on a dry box. I have the bracket sold by Clavey as I feel it is a more elegant solution. The NRS bracket is more readily available and can be tuned for height unlike the Clavey model. You may want to look at your rowing geometry if you feel the need to stand. Raising your seat height may require higher oar towers as well. I find the combination of seat and flip bracket is stable in big water and makes getting in the dry box or cooler easy.
 
#3 ·
This topic get visited often under various considerations.

To each their own:) Na, I won't be that lame. But I'm going skiing so I'll be brief now.

Don't run out and buy a taller tower yet. Part of that power you feel when standing is often the result of a steeper angle of entry resulting in your blade being deeper in the water rather than lily dipping on the surface. You might even consider keeping your current towers but cutting them lower.

However, I have a very tall seating position but when driving into a big one my last act of defiance is a standing push like you really mean it.
 
#32 ·
Frequently no cutting is necessary to experiment with the first inch or so. If your oar tower fits into a modular cross typical of Hollander fitting frames you can simply push the tower down into the tube and hold down while resetting the screws. Towers should have a rounded end cap that helps maintain the aluminum tower roundness when cranking down on the set screws, hence, that end cap should prevent damage to the tubes. Since this is just an experiment in controlled conditions(an eddy or lake) you can let a bit air out of the tubes and maybe test up to several inches shorter towers before cutting anything. If you are worried about the tower pressing into the tube for this short time then use some patch material or other fabric for padding. Loosening cam straps may help during this test. If this experiment results in a punctured tube, I know a good repairman.

Doing this experiment for up to several inches should help determine if shorter is improving or worsening your geometry.

Otherwise, as Zach says, it is best to cut down in short increments before going for a big wack.

BTW, if you're out in the wilds you can use the tower fitting as a vice to hold the tower while hacksawing. Be sure to use some type of padding to protect the raft tubes from the saw. This of course requires loosening and rotating the tower fitting.
 
#9 ·
Nothing wrong with a seat, if that's your thing, but if the seat sets you up and raises the center of gravity then you have a damn good chance of being thrown out of the boat. I've seen so many people, especially in those DRE seats that don't cut them down, they're adjusting their oar towers and everything to compensate for the seats that stick them way up in the air.
 
#10 ·
I love my flip seat. I used to have my seat mounted onto my dry box but I really didn't like that because I couldn't open my dry box when my boat was loaded, and it also made the dry box lid way too heavy. With the flip seat I sit only 3/4" higher than I did before and I can easily access my dry box if I need to.
 
#12 ·
I'd like to sit down and drink a beer with this guy MNichols to better understand his personal issues.

He seems to badmouth DRE yet praise Greg Yeager and Dennis Schell. They are one and the same with regard to modular Hollander fitting frames. You can't be an ass hole regarding one without being a total asshole regarding both.

Not only that, Mr MNichols calls them DRE seats without ever recognizing that that frame is made by perhaps a half dozen frame fabricators and sold very successfully coast to coast.

I'd like to know truly what Mr MNichols problem is. He is finally recognizing that flip seat height and tower heights are adjustable, be they DRE, AAA, or several other fabricators. He never seemed to recognize this before.
 
#19 ·
I'd like to sit down and drink a beer with this guy MNichols to better understand his personal issues.

He seems to badmouth DRE yet praise Greg Yeager and Dennis Schell. They are one and the same with regard to modular Hollander fitting frames. You can't be an ass hole regarding one without being a total asshole regarding both.

Not only that, Mr MNichols calls them DRE seats without ever recognizing that that frame is made by perhaps a half dozen frame fabricators and sold very successfully coast to coast.

I'd like to know truly what Mr MNichols problem is. He is finally recognizing that flip seat height and tower heights are adjustable, be they DRE, AAA, or several other fabricators. He never seemed to recognize this before.

I wrote a few responses to this, and deleted every one.

IN each and every thread you post on, you have absolutely nothing positive to add, it's all about slamming someone or something that doesn't agree with you, or you don't agree with, and back each of your statements with your opinion.

Zero fact, no data, nothing other than your opinion.

I and others that are PMing me, are quite tired of it. In the future, I'd appreciate if you'd leave me out of your childish diatribes, as your opinion was neither solicited nor welcome.

The chances of me sitting down and having a beer with you after being the subject of your posts, well let's just say He*l has a greater chance of freezing over first... You sir have succeeded in making an enemy out of me, took you a while, but if that was your goal, well done!!!
 
#13 ·
My flip seat bracket sits flush on the top of my dry box, so I sit about 2 1/2 inches above the top of the box. Not much different than sitting on a pad. I find the low back and contour of the seat helps keep me in position when taking side hits in big water. An added plus is I am not sitting on a wet pad puddling water.
When I row a boat sitting on a box or pad I notice a difference in stability. It's all about what works for you. Experiment a bit and find a rowing position and oar geometry that works for you. It is a trial and error process and everyone has different body size, strength, and physical limitations.

But what do I know I use pins and clips and drain my cooler.

I don't think you will see too many people that run the North Fork of the Payette sitting on a box and using open locks and that is about as big as it gets.
 
#14 ·
I love my seat. My only thought is that when I sit down in a rapid I feel a slight lack of power, I figured raise my seat on top of a cooler ( maybe a few inches) and ideally have more aggressive geometry as well as a better viewpoint of the rapid, it’s a big price to convert but I’m just wondering if it’s worth it
 
#16 ·
You can raise your seat pretty easily with a couple of plywood shims and some longer bolts. I'd also consider shortening your oar towers or moving them closer or further away.

Speaking from experience... it would take quite a bit of a rise in height to make a significant difference as far as viewing the river better. I've used everything from a low slung creek Cat to a big Grand Canyon sized raft rig and found standing up and/or standing on a cooler to be necessary when "boat scouting" a rapid.
 
#17 ·
Thanks for the scolding EM. I deserved it. I probably deserve a good scolding from MNichols also.

But I have changed my mind in that I'm now accepting the fact that there can be personal choice and preference(and perhaps a necessity). Much easier to just say personal choice than to think that I can or should try to change someones opinion.

One of the biggest reasons people sit on boxes is necessity, there is almost no where else to put the box be it a cooler or dry box. They are making the best of the storage space they have and allow quick access because it is not buried by gear. I just prefer to put quick access items in captain's boxes/bags and the dry box shore side where I can do quick access to kitchen and camping items. This is possible with a cataraft but please don't consider that a statement of catarafts are better than rafts.

People say they think negatively when they see seats. When I see a person sitting on a box I think of a child sitting in a little red wagon, i.e. don't start off to fast cause he'll roll out the back or turn to sharply or he'll tumble out the side:)
 
#18 ·
My opinion is that seats are a personal preference. Some people love 'em, some don't. If they really keep you in the boat better in bigwater, then why don't outfitters on Cherry Creek, Forks of the Kern, high Water MFS, Selway, Colorado (Canyon) use them? I'm not questioning folks' feeling of security having a seat...just wondering why outfitters that run big sh!t on a regular basis don't run seats. Because it is a preference. It's fine...If you like a seat, use one. If you don't, don't. To each their own. There are dozens of other boat set-up preferences that folks' camp up in and defend to the death.

My preference is to sit on a pad on my cooler. I like it because I can adjust my position as conditions change. I can move forward to the edge of my seat for big pushes or lounge back in the mellow stuff. I can slide over and let my kid sit next to me row the other oar. And in the steep stuff, I can lean way back/stand up when going over the drop without something jamming me in my back.
 
#22 ·
I did reach out to DRE, and they said they could accommodate me, but I got the feeling that they weren't too excited about the idea, and that it would cost me a pretty penny.
I'm using a crazy creek on the dry box, and that's working for the budget at the moment. I will reach out to CFS if I decide to pursue this in the future, though. Thanks for the suggestion!
 
#23 ·
Ignore button is there for a reason. We don't want anyone having a coronary in here, at least not until they have bought two Rapid Rungs each!

To add to the data pool, I've gone both routes (though don't have much time on a lowback). Both have advantages and I have pretty much settled on no seat. My seat is sitting up in the rafters. Anyone want to buy an DRE (brand, not style) seat? My reasons are a lot inline with EM and BigWater. I like to move around, let other people row, adjust for different water. With a seat you are locked in rather well, that is the blessing and the curse. You can't lounge around, lay back on your pile in the easy stuff, etc. If someone else rows your boat that is much bigger or smaller they will be uncomfortable instead of being able to slide forward or back on the box. The tall back seat, without question, compromises being able to take big back stokes, period. I have to slide forward so I can lean back and pull which kind of defeats the purpose. High backs do make pushing a much stronger stroke. If you are doing mostly pushing, the high back flip seats are very advantagous. Bottom line is, it is really a preference. If I was going to be the only one rowing my boat and was going to run mostly whitewater day trips I'd probably have a low back seat mounted low as possible and adjust towers accordingly. All my rigs get used by different people (often enough that moving a kick bar isn't a good option) and for all kinds of trips. The pad on box is the most versatile and that is what I need.

Before fully committing I would suggest rowing some boats that are set up differently to see what you like. You may find the confines of a high back aren't for you or that the benefits are. A pad on box may feel to sloppy to you yet might find that leaning back on a gear pile having a sip is a real nice way to enjoy the flats. Weigh out what best and dial in your rig. The big thing is going to be matching the geometry of the you, seat, towers and oar length. I think once you get that dialed in, what you sit on matters less.
 
#24 ·
Thanks Zach for your perfect least offensive perspective. You are 100% correct, find your preference.

I've made the mistake of an unwritten commandment. Don't engage on MB because it is a lose-lose. Old dogs have opinions not to be questioned and I must confess to being one of them old dogs.

With regard to MNichols, everytime I heard DRE from him I'd become overly defensive on account of several occasions he choice to offend that company and my close friends. I have history under that brand dating back to spending a lot of money at DRE in the 1980's with what I considered perfection with regard to a customer first and customer always business. In agreement with MNichols there was based upon my first hand experience a time when DRE was not perfect but with respect to Mike and Christine that brand survived during tough times. If you offend that company and it current owners you will have me to step up to your face and say FU.

With regard to Electric-Mayhem, my contribution to the mentioned thread began after EM stated high back seat cause flips. To be brief, I called BS on that and based upon visual proof EM provided; I stated that that dude had fundamental set up problems not just associated with the seat. That thread digressed to where it was obvious that a frame fitting discussion was necessary. But when further questioned it was determined that the rower was a newbie who likely didn't know jack shit. Hence, asking did you correct this newbies problems the answer was; wasn't my boat. I'll call BS on that any day. Anybody having issues that you know how to solve it is your responsibility to mention and help solve, especially on the Grand. If you thought that that dude was better off without a high back seat then in my opinion throw that chair it in the river. The next time he flipped either he or someone else's life was at risk. The not my problem attitude is a problem.
 
#26 ·
Thanks Zach for your perfect least offensive perspective. You are 100% correct, find your preference.

I've made the mistake of an unwritten commandment. Don't engage on MB because it is a lose-lose. Old dogs have opinions not to be questioned and I must confess to being one of them old dogs.

With regard to Electric-Mayhem, my contribution to the mentioned thread began after EM stated high back seat cause flips. To be brief, I called BS on that and based upon visual proof EM provided; I stated that that dude had fundamental set up problems not just associated with the seat. That thread digressed to where it was obvious that a frame fitting discussion was necessary. But when further questioned it was determined that the rower was a newbie who likely didn't know jack shit. Hence, asking did you correct this newbies problems the answer was; wasn't my boat. I'll call BS on that any day. Anybody having issues that you know how to solve it is your responsibility to mention and help solve, especially on the Grand. If you thought that that dude was better off without a high back seat then in my opinion throw that chair it in the river. The next time he flipped either he or someone else's life was at risk. The not my problem attitude is a problem.
I had a whole thing written up in response... but I'm just done. Getting VERY tired of you making ignorant, out of context and personal attacks on people for having a differing opinion. This threads always seem to start disintegrating once you make some declarative and stank filled statement.

But please...keep on telling people what I meant and misconstruing what I said some more though. Have fun...this will likely be my last response to you.

Here is the thread we are talking about...everyone can make up their own mind about it... https://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f44/rowers-seat-vs-sitting-on-padded-dry-box-98887.html
 
#25 ·
Sorry If my question stirred up some stuff. I’m still undecided on whether I should put a flip seat on my cooler or just keep the low cut nrs chair I’m rocking and as mentioned maybe adjust my oar locks. I would want the flip seat cause it would allow me more gear space and potentially more paddle power?? If I keep the low profile I’m still lacking on prime gear space under the chair. I have a 16ft RMR peak and like to paddle III/IV.. big water runs. 😕
 
#27 ·
Don't be sorry... this is just a thing we have to deal with.

All I'll say is that, not having any thwarts but putting a cooler or drybox in that space is basically the normal way setup a raft. Obviously plenty of people have opinions about seat style...and there its completely down to personal preference.

If you use the NRS flip seat mount...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL4jfhs4QCg

...you can keep your low back seat but have the cooler or drybox and have it still be accessible easily so perhaps that is a way to start. If you feel like you still want to be higher you could have a competent welder add a length of tubing for the mount and raise the drybox or cooler up (or put spacers under the seat so it doesn't flex). You could also put a plywood or 2x4 or whatever your favorite spacer material between the seat and the mount to test out heights first.

Plenty of input and ideas to try in this thread...I'd just say pick one or two and try em out.
 
#28 ·
EM,

Thanks for the link. It seems, read the transcript doesn't work for you any better than another guy we know.

With respect EM, and I really do appreciate and respect you, it confirms my to be as brief as possible summary of the thread.

Nobody fitted this newbie to his boat before pushing him off at Lee's Ferry. If it was a disaster waiting to happen for you in your post-mortem analysis imagine what it was like for this apprentice. Amazing his first flip was at Bed Rock from the way it sounds.

If the seat was too close to the towers it was not the newbies fault, it was his mentors. Yes, need I say it, a high back seat in totally the wrong place is worse than no seat at all. Better to sit on a box if you don't know what you are doing.

I recently apprenticed a cousin-in-law and I spent at least an hour and a half setting up my other boat for him. And this was just for the Upper C between Pumphouse and Dotsero. I set up seat and kick bar. I dialed in his oar towers and oar-in-lock distances making sure blade entry angles matched his 6'5" requirements(I'm 5'8" and shrinking). Sad that someone did not give your newbie the same considerations on your Grand trip.

Hopefully before you dial me out of your life take these words to heart.
Safety is your responsibility!
Research rivers carefully!
Assess your skills properly!
Maintain your equipment!
Consider your team!
Respect team limitations!
Confirm team procedures!
Have fun!

That said, I assume, adios.
 
#29 ·


Now go back and actually read the threads with no bias towards your argument. You didn't even get all, or even most, of the facts right and made your entire argument on assumptions you made about the situation and my thought process. Every response in that thread was like that. You read what you wanted to read, and then responded to that and not what I actually wrote.

We beat this horse to death...and then beat the horse to a pulp in that thread and you are still pulling this Bullshit and just adding to it.

You've continued to make it your attacking comments personal so, frankly, you can fuck right off if you are insinuating that I don't take the safety, happiness and comfort of the people on my trips deeply to heart just because I didn't want to mess with someone elses boat setup. The owner of the boat was on the trip...and once I knew it was a problem I definitely mentioned it. If they wanted to change it, they could have. That is the most obvious stuff in the world and you are a shitty hateful ASSHOLE for implying that I would knowingly allow someone to continue the trip in an unsafe manner.

You can go to hell with your "appreciation and respect" dude...trust me it is not mutual.

One thing is certain...narcissistic know-it-alls just can't help themselves when it comes to making sure everyone knows stuff and anything counter to that "certain knowledge" fucks with their world view.

Every response in this thread was helpful and considerate until you came in and started insinuating that people didn't know what they were talking about and that they were stubborn and opinionated about stuff they didn't know anything about (pot kettle black much?).

I don't know what is going on in your life that causes you to be like this...but I hope you figure it out. Its gotta suck being stuck in your head with that stuff going on.

I think I'm gonna take Zbairds advice and try to ignore this for a while...probably gonna fail though.
 
#30 ·
It is obvious that your newbie on the Grand did not get proper courtesy. In my "narcissistic" self perspective, I would have definitely noticed issues for a newbie before Bedrock and recommended/completed changes.

I've dialed in boaters on the bank at Jackass and on the bank at Soap Creek fabricating oar rights and seat backs as necessary.

Let me go totally "narcissistic", that is called being a TL! Tough job. Try it sometime.

Goddamn, if you have a newbie please pay some f'in attention to what is going on and not as far down as Bedrock proclaim issues with his seat.

It is likely a high back seat improperly set up to him is something that contributed to a flip at Bedrock, and is something we might agree on. We might also agree that a properly set up high back seats and oars do not contribute to flips. Lastly, we might agree that if all was dialed in before Bedrock that flip might not have occurred.

Step up EM and think like a TL. On the Grand I've been TL thirteen times usually with apprentices for one reason or another. Never did I give a discourtesy to a newbie and not pay total attention up top and I've never had a newbie flip. They were watched and they were coached top to bottom as necessary.

So pay less attention to me if you prefer but I'll never pay less attention to a newbie on the river.

Ron
 
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