DRE Frames vs Cambridge Welding - Page 4 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #31
 
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FYI,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oilite

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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #32
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNichols View Post
But they are a custom design and casting....
Nice looking oarlocks. Did you cast them yourself.

Above is a Wiki link to inform you about oil impregnated bronze since you have displayed a lack of knowledge concerning this topic.

The dribble is aluminum powder from wobbled out tower fittings. When you see the dribble, walk over and you will find you can wiggle the oar lock shaft substantially. I've seen the deflection be as much as degrees. You don't even need to see this situation to know that it is around, you can hear it from a distance. It is sorta a burrrrrrr, rumble, squeak, burrrrr, rumble, squeak, squeak, rumble. That is the best I can describe it. The topic comes up at least once a year on MB with solutions such as pee on it, pour beer on it, etc. Those aren't the solution.

The frames at DRE have always been top notch. The tower oar lock fitting comes at two price points, light duty and last for life(oiled bronze bushing). You get what you pay for.

I've never heard of oil bronze bushing dribbling. I've heard of one extreme instance of one shattering. When I spent time at DRE I recommended that all towers should be tapped and fitted, as you recommend MNichols, with a Delrin bushing. That did not happen since the oil bronze works extremely well.

There was a period of time when DRE sewn goods would fail a quality control inspection. That was corrected by the new owners and it had better still be the case.

I spent a lot of money with Dennis and Greg at DRE back in the mid/late 80's. I knew that business well. I spent pre-retirement time working at DRE for Mike and Christine. Likewise with Phil, Zach and Jason. So I can say that I know DRE through the years as well as perhaps anybody. Obviously, like oiled bronze, you bad mouth something you know nothing about regarding DRE and current ownership. A mistake I might have made with Wiggy's. I will stop at Wiggy's next time I'm in GJ and hopefully change my mind.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #33
 
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You are most certainly entitled to your opinion, of which your prose is simply that. I was in the rafting industry for many years as a manufacturer and have mine as well, which is backed up by a mechanical engineering degree. I have no lack of knowledge regarding the mechanical properties of alloyed materials, impregnated or not.

The wikipedia article points out that dull friction can smear the impregnated bronze, trapping the impregnated lubrication inside the bushing where it does little good. Thanks, I hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense. Another reason for the Delrin as it has none of those properties. Just because you haven't heard it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I'm glad you agree it's a superior material, and as an added bonus, a lower cost then the DRE offering


In answer to your question about the oarlocks, I helped collaborate on the design, and MT4runner made the wooden pattern and had them cast at a foundry in MT. They are cast out of Aluminum bronze, and Magnesium bronze as the previous ones I had were silicon bronze and too soft for oarlocks, they kept spreading at the most inconvenient times.

Either alloy is way stronger from a rebound perspective and shouldn't spread, I'm curious as to which alloy will perform better. I'm guessing it'll be pretty equal.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #34
 
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MNichols,

Your ME degree fails you, in my opinion. A bushing is purpose made for one thing to move inside another in a rotating motion. Please refer to definition 1 in the below link to refreshen your ME degree.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bushing

I'd think that Delrin would be a better solution, simpler, but the oiled bronze works exceptionally well and worth every penny for the added cost. In fact, it is a way over-engineered solution relative to the simple, low-rate-of-turn problem. It would be more suited to a dude rowing at 500 or more strokes per minute. I've never seen that. Now that is what they'd call, "Pull'en like a big dog!" which translate to "get the job done fast".

Maybe I should just speak from experience. I have two sets of oiled bronze towers. THEY DO NOT SQUEAK OR DRIBBLE!!!! Everyone I know loves them. Sounds like you do not have any since you suggest that perhaps in the world somewhere there might be dribble. You do not say, yours dribble. But I doubt it because since there is almost no friction there is no wear hence nothing to dribble. So on this difference of opinion we can agree to disagree; but again in my opinion your ME degree fails you.

BTW, the article we reference says dull machining/cutting and not dull friction. I'm not sure what dull friction even means considering that bushing are made to nearly eliminate friction.

Do you prefer AL bronze or MG bronze. I like the threaded lock nut "Mag 70" Sawyer Cobra's on my boats. They are an idea solution in conjunction with a oiled bronze bushing.

Do you sell your oar locks? If they were threaded I'd certainly consider buying a pair when my Cobra's wear out(might be never?).
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #35
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNichols View Post
I'm glad you agree it's a superior material, and as an added bonus, a lower cost then the DRE offering
MNichols, I forgot to mention. The oiled bronzed bushings retail, if I remember correctly, were under $8 a pair. The appropriate Delrin bushing from Sawyer is about $12 a pair. Sooo, your statement that Delrin is lower cost than the DRE offering does not hold up.

The reason there is a light duty and heavy duty(bushinged) option for towers is that when buying recreational items not everyone can afford to buy the highest quality. For that matter, not everyone needs the highest quality. (Kinda like buying a Wiggy's sleeping bag.)

Jason and I investigated Delrin tubing cut to length. I remember that we even got in some sample tubing. That would have been an inexpensive way to sleeve all of the oar tower aluminum cast fittings. One concern I had is that without the flange at the top that if not properly press fit the sleeve might tend to slip down. Anyway, we had many other projects in the works and this one did not get finished before I decided to fully retire and quit playing around in a boat store.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #36
 
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What does Peg have to say about it?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #37
 
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Peg said she hates squeaky oar locks. Thanks for asking.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #38
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoRon View Post
MNichols, I forgot to mention. The oiled bronzed bushings retail, if I remember correctly, were under $8 a pair. The appropriate Delrin bushing from Sawyer is about $12 a pair. Sooo, your statement that Delrin is lower cost than the DRE offering does not hold up.

The reason there is a light duty and heavy duty(bushinged) option for towers is that when buying recreational items not everyone can afford to buy the highest quality. For that matter, not everyone needs the highest quality. (Kinda like buying a Wiggy's sleeping bag.)

Jason and I investigated Delrin tubing cut to length. I remember that we even got in some sample tubing. That would have been an inexpensive way to sleeve all of the oar tower aluminum cast fittings. One concern I had is that without the flange at the top that if not properly press fit the sleeve might tend to slip down. Anyway, we had many other projects in the works and this one did not get finished before I decided to fully retire and quit playing around in a boat store.
I think the flange around the top is an integral part of it and one of the reasons for having a sleeve. I'm pretty sure a lot of the squeek and black goo comes from the oar lock hitting the top of the oar tower and wearing each other down.

I guess you can remedy this by just using a brass or delrin washer too...but the flange creates a nice precision bearing surface that a cast oar tower does not.

I have the normal oar towers without any bushing...and its definitely worn down my oar locks (and probably hogged out the hole in the oar tower too). The Oar Locks I've been using for the last couple years are noticeably worn on the top and bottom and have a lot more slop. For the DRE ones, they are like $25 per tower or so to have the one with the Brass bushing and that seems worth it when it will save wear and tear on a $60 oar lock that you'll have to replace a couple years down the road.

Since I have to tools and skills, I've been meaning to upgrade my towers to have bushings. I think I'd either go with Delrin or even more likely UHMW since its self lubricating and doesn't require grease or graphite.

I bought a Nexus cataraft frame from John Weldfelt earlier this year and it has Brass bushings in the oar towers. Not sure if its the fancy oil impregnated kind (John cares about quality and engineering so I'd assume it is), but it still makes noise when it gets dry and still corrodes and drips black stuff sometimes... so I'm still not convinced that is the way to go.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #39
 
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Several times you mention brass. Bronze is a very different material and much preferred for a bushing such as what we are discussing, especially oiled bronzed which is something like 20% or more oil by molecular weight(SAE 30 is what I recall). A brass bushing would be sacrificial and somewhat lubricating considering that most oar locks are bronze which is much harder than brass; hence, you would end up with black dribble as the brass wears. It would likely squeak very badly.

Yes, the flange is an integral protector of the soft cast aluminum tower top in which the oar lock rotates. A properly press-fit sleeve with 3/16" wall would do the same but not as well perhaps.

Delrin is a high molecular weight/high density polyethylene which has the property of being slippery(self lubricating). The Sawyer bushing is Delrin and has the flange.
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