Wilderness designation in Grand Canyon? - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 08-30-2012   #1
 
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Wilderness designation in Grand Canyon?

I would like to share my and hear others opinions on this topic. First, I have rafted the Canyon numerous times, privately and commercially. I have also hiked the corridor trails numerous times. I love the place. It kills me to hear rafters only wanting to ban motorized travel in the canyon. They want it to be "Wilderness". Have you ever stopped to think about all the people that visit the canyon? It is one of the 7 natural wonders of the world. It is also a world heritage site. People come from ALL OVER THE WORLD to see the place. If you have ever been to the South or North rim you will met all kinds of these people. Not all of them can do a 18-21 day river trip!

I feel it is very selfish for us to complain about this. It really has never ruining my experience there. Well, maybe the helicopter parade around Quartermaster Canyon... I have many friends who are commercial guides there. They are some of the most caring, personable people I know. The boats really aren't that loud or stinky either. They give YOU the camps YOU want. They help YOU if YOU have a problem. They share their ice with YOU in the summer. IF YOU talk to them.They don't stop at all the really cool spots either. Those "motor" boats are there to help other people see the beautiful place that we have in our back yard. Lets share it! You are really lucky to be able to spend 3 weeks in a place like that! Many people save for years to just see it for 6 days! Sure, someone is making money, that is life these days.

So...quit your bitch'n and enjoy being there. That is my 2 bits.

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Old 08-30-2012   #2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafterbrooks
I would like to share my and hear others opinions on this topic. First, I have rafted the Canyon numerous times, privately and commercially. I have also hiked the corridor trails numerous times. I love the place. It kills me to hear rafters only wanting to ban motorized travel in the canyon. They want it to be "Wilderness". Have you ever stopped to think about all the people that visit the canyon? It is one of the 7 natural wonders of the world. It is also a world heritage site. People come from ALL OVER THE WORLD to see the place. If you have ever been to the South or North rim you will met all kinds of these people. Not all of them can do a 18-21 day river trip!

I feel it is very selfish for us to complain about this. It really has never ruining my experience there. Well, maybe the helicopter parade around Quartermaster Canyon... I have many friends who are commercial guides there. They are some of the most caring, personable people I know. The boats really aren't that loud or stinky either. They give YOU the camps YOU want. They help YOU if YOU have a problem. They share their ice with YOU in the summer. IF YOU talk to them.They don't stop at all the really cool spots either. Those "motor" boats are there to help other people see the beautiful place that we have in our back yard. Lets share it! You are really lucky to be able to spend 3 weeks in a place like that! Many people save for years to just see it for 6 days! Sure, someone is making money, that is life these days.

So...quit your bitch'n and enjoy being there. That is my 2 bits.
So, should we put wheel chair ramps at all the camps too? What a about a gondola on Denali? It's not my problem if your vacay is time restricted. Some places are loved to death. The high road for me on this issue is: not every special place should be accessible to everyone at the expense of the true, wilderness experience. Especially places that were meant to be set aside as wilderness by congress.

So...quit your bitch'n and telling me how I should feel about motorized travel in the GC natural wonder of this world.
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Old 08-31-2012   #3
 
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Originally Posted by wildh2onriver View Post
So, should we put wheel chair ramps at all the camps too? What a about a gondola on Denali? It's not my problem if your vacay is time restricted. Some places are loved to death. The high road for me on this issue is: not every special place should be accessible to everyone at the expense of the true, wilderness experience. Especially places that were meant to be set aside as wilderness by congress.

So...quit your bitch'n and telling me how I should feel about motorized travel in the GC natural wonder of this world.
Yea, you tell em. And smaller rivers should only have kayaks, no rafts, the rowing rigs are too big and crowd the river. #sarcasm

You should feel however you want. Your opinion won't change anything as far as motors go in the canyon. I have seen three different major pushes to eliminate motors over the years and they all went down in flames.
I have run commercially both with motor and oars and I honestly don't see the problem. When I am rowing, the motor boats are by quickly and there is no issue. If you have a problem with motors then go when they are not on the river. I am so sorry for ruining the wilderness experience of all the private trips that I have given food, ice, tp, camps, patching material, a life jacket, and manpower to flip boats over. BTW: if you are going to ask a commercial trip for something, don't send over the girl that looks the best in a bikini (lame). Just come and ask. We are all in this together and should help each other out.
I have been boating in the canyon for 43 years and I can tell you that the motors are there to stay. Most of the seasoned river guides that I know both motor and row because they know the same thing, that the motors will stay in the canyon.
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Old 08-31-2012   #4
 
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Hi,

As noted above, there have been repeated attempts to ban motors in the GC river corridor, including one recently that went to the U.S. Appeals Court and failed.

Formal Wilderness designation is a specific category that must be passed by Congress. And even if the river corridor were to be so declared by Congress, it could grandfather motors -- something that has been done in other wilderness designation legislation.

Full disclosure -- I've rowed it and I've motored it. Given the choice, I'd row every time. But I concede that "wilderness" has a certain "state of mind" component that -- for some people -- doesn't include motorized travel of any kind.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips
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Old 08-31-2012   #5
 
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"So, should we put wheel chair ramps at all the camps too?"


No, YOU should NOT put wheelchair ramps at all of the camps. WE, as the commercial guides who take differently-abled people down GC will do that for you. When we take "special pops" trips, we bring roll-up, sand worthy wheel chair sidewalks with us and set them up at each camp. Leave no trace, and allow access for as much of our population as possble. Yes, this has been done on motor boats as well as row boats. Some of those folks simply must be on a Motor boat to have a safe experience. Motors DO have a place in the Canyon and so do people of differing abilities. My two cents......
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Old 08-31-2012   #6
 
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I never knew commercial trips could accommodate people with mobility issues. That is awesome to hear! I will have to remember that for the future. I live in a place where we have a large disabled skiing/outdoor activity population and some of those peeps might want to go there

I also prefer rowing over motors but the magic of the canyon is there either way. I would rather see our efforts going to removing Glen Canyon dam or some way to get the old river back into play. Some warm water for the native fishes, some sediment to rebuild the beaches that are gone. Floods to wash out the Tamy's and those nasty viruses that keep going around. That is what I feel are the most important issues for the river corridor. Maybe someday...

I also participated in your survey, Rich. Thanks for your efforts.
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Old 08-31-2012   #7
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Originally Posted by rafterbrooks View Post
So...quit your bitch'n and enjoy being there. That is my 2 bits.
Interesting post. It looks like rafterbrooks is trying to start an argument. I'll bite.

Motorized travel on a swift moving river is pathetic. It's like having an escalator up a mountain so everyone can climb it. Not everyone gets to float the Grand Canyon from end to end. I say this as someone who has rowed the Canyon more than once, and as someone who recognized that there are things I don't get, like the view from the top of Mt. Everest. I will probably never earn that - like the fanny pack crowd has not earned their 6 day Grand Canyon trip!

As for the disabled, I am proud to be part of a country that has the compassion and wisdom to mandate access for disabled people to most buildings, parks, monuments, etc. However, I've never met a disabled person that insists on their right to float the Grand Canyon, climb that mountain, or ski that back-country chute. Some disabled people accomplish these things and inspire us all - but I doubt they would insist on access to the wildest and most remote places just because able-bodied adventurers get to go there. Most of this planet is wild and unpaved and some of us are more able-bodied to explore it. This has always been true.

Of course I feel zero compassion for the poor soul who wants to raft the Grand, but only has a week of vacation. F*$% 'em! There is no reason to advocate for their right to see the whole Canyon in a week because they have more important things to do. I make chump change, live in cheap rentals, have dogs, and CHOOSE to spend hundreds of hours a year on the river. Some schmuck with a week of vacation from their high paying job that wants to let the motor do the work gets no love from me!

There are a lot of complications with the Wilderness proposal, and motors might be there to stay, but to start a thread defending a weaker way of life demonstrates your own weakness. Row that shit with your own two hands or go find some dirty reservoir for your motor sports.

Motors are for the weak and for those who exploit paradise!
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Old 08-31-2012   #8
 
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Hi Rafterbrooks.

You've hit on something really important -- dam management. Glen Canyon dam has done far more harm to the enduring wilderness character of the river in GC than any transient noise from four stroke motors.

GPCBA has been active in tracking the Long Term Experimental Management Program that is being developed right now by the government. You may have seen some the prior posts about that, and we're going to continue to stay involved.

More information is available here Glen Canyon Dam Long-Term Experimental and Management Plan EIS Information Center I'd urge folks to get involved in the public comment process about developing a program that will determine dam operations and GC river conditions for decades to come.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips
Secretary, GCPBA
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Old 08-31-2012   #9
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Originally Posted by rafterbrooks View Post
The boats really aren't that loud or stinky either. They give YOU the camps YOU want.
By the way, this is the biggest load I've ever read. The boats ARE load, DO stink, and create a wake as they pass. They snatch camps right out from under oarsmen, even near dusk - their tip is what matters, not hooking up boaters they will never see again. You might have some nice friends that work down there (I do too), but to suggest that they aren't operating load, stinky, camp snatching boats is ridiculous!
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Old 08-31-2012   #10
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Isn't every float trip loud and stinky regardless of a motor?
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