Trip Planning in the Time of Covid - Page 3 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #21
Dipshit with the most.
 
carvedog's Avatar
 
Bellevue, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1991
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Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
Is that Buck in back row next to the wrestler? I bet that was a fun trip if so.
Yes my brother. Buck SUPed it at six(?) feet. He did great. Such a fun trip. Sure had a close one with him this winter.

It truly was one of my best Middle Forks in a long line of 5 star trips. God I love that place and how it (usually) brings out the best in people.

Love to get some boating in with you at some point.

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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #22
 
Lafayette, Colorado
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Join Date: Apr 2014
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With proper planning I think river trips can be safe and doable this summer, obviously some concessions will have to be made. Trip size should absolutely be limited to 10, I know it is a bummer but contact-tracing 10 people still results in lots and lots of potential infection. Group interactions can be adjusted to accommodate distancing and shuttling can be done with extreme care (and trusting your group has been "doing the right thing" before the trip).
We had a March Ruby trip planned and figured the logistics to do it safely, but canceled it anyway do to the optics of pulling a trailer loaded with rafts across the state. That and the statewide shelter in place order. Now as it is lifted I think we can do it safely.
My wife and I started to plan to get out on the Upper C with our son this weekend. We figured we could wouldn't need to stop anywhere on the way in or back, just at the putin/takeout. We decided not to go because Eagle county is asking non-residents to stay away. We could do it and never see or come in contact with anyone else, but I have to honor the counties ordinances.
I'd love to get out on the ark for some kayaking, but Chaffee county is the same, and I would definitely come in contact with people if I went to BV.
For now I am just waiting for the towns to open up to non-residence and planning smaller trips. It also helps that I don't have the schedule this summer that allows for anything longer than an extended weekend (damn nursing school....).
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #23
 
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On The River, Idaho
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I honestly don't know if there is going to be a season this year. I think most people are hopeful right now because things got crazy and now it seems to be getting better. But I'm really afraid of what will happen in the next month and a half as states continue to re-open and people act like idiots. I really think that we haven't even seen the big spike in most western states yet. States will most likely be trying to go back into lock-down mode in a month due to massive jumps in the numbers of infected people. It won't take much for them to shut it all down, including river trips. I think right now your best bet is if you have trips in late August and September. Pre-trip testing is a good idea if you can count on the tests. But most of those tests have a 30% false positive result, so you really can't rely on that at all and the antibody tests are just as unreliable. Really the best bet might be solo private or within the household trips. I could see it also being really difficult to find shuttles if it all goes sideways again. I'm hoping for the best, but March and April were most likely only the tip of the iceberg for the inter-mountain west IMHO.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #24
 
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Kalispell, Montana
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Originally Posted by jwburdge View Post
With proper planning I think river trips can be safe and doable this summer, obviously some concessions will have to be made. Trip size should absolutely be limited to 10, I know it is a bummer but contact-tracing 10 people still results in lots and lots of potential infection. Group interactions can be adjusted to accommodate distancing and shuttling can be done with extreme care (and trusting your group has been "doing the right thing" before the trip).
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Originally Posted by DoubleShadow View Post
Really the best bet might be solo private or within the household trips. I could see it also being really difficult to find shuttles if it all goes sideways again. I'm hoping for the best, but March and April were most likely only the tip of the iceberg for the inter-mountain west IMHO.

Keep your group small...and keep your group consistent. Having 8-10 people this weekend and boating with a different group of 8-10 people next weekend might not be the best idea...but if your whole regular crew keeps their exposure down, you shouldn't have any more exposure if you go with them once vs going with them 10 times.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleShadow View Post
I honestly don't know if there is going to be a season this year. I think most people are hopeful right now because things got crazy and now it seems to be getting better. But I'm really afraid of what will happen in the next month and a half as states continue to re-open and people act like idiots. I really think that we haven't even seen the big spike in most western states yet. States will most likely be trying to go back into lock-down mode in a month due to massive jumps in the numbers of infected people. It won't take much for them to shut it all down, including river trips.

I think you're right.
And even if people don't act like idiots, people will cross over from all over the country a lot more than they have in the past 2 months and suddenly cases will spike.



Quote:
I think right now your best bet is if you have trips in late August and September.
I wouldn't even plan on that.


Take the opportunities that come your way and create interesting trips in your own back yard.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #25
 
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Lewistown, middle of MT
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Think of all the people on your trip as your new family. I agree that having your “family” be extremely careful the 2.5 weeks prior to your trip and getting to the put in. No restaurant meals, wear a mask everywhere like grocery stores, etc. If your “family” doesn’t have anything to share- you should all be ok. As a contact investigator it would be hard to not identify everyone on a river trip as anything but a close contact. That means if one of you converts on the trip or soon after- everyone is in quarantine for 2 weeks. The incubation period is 14-16 days including asymptomatic shedding. Even if you test negative the day you take off- doesn’t mean you aren’t brewing it. We also don’t have verification that if you have positive antibodies that you have immunity-so that test doesn’t help much. All that being said - I am planning a trip with people I trust. My new “family”. Good luck everyone in your decisions - tough times. One thing I can tell you for sure is that you do not want this, so be careful!
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #26
 
Seattle, Washington
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First off, thank's Carvedog for a thoughtful post that could have been derailed fast into political finger pointing - so far so good. I am the TL on a MFS trip in late July, and I also happen to be a physician who has been immersed in COVID-19. You would think I might have special insight into the wisdom of such a trip, the likelihood of it even running, and how best to mitigate risk. Yet I struggle with it and try to be clear minded, not letting my intense desire to get out there cloud my judgement.

The bottom line is I do think a trip like this can potentially be done responsibly if we do not just give lip service to the type of precautions mentioned above. On the river and in camp, I think the risk of transmission is low with good hand hygiene, cautious kitchen practices (mask, gloves, limiting who is in the kitchen), and general social distancing. I honestly do not see the groover as a major issue as long as there is good hand washing - in hospitals across the nation we are not making any crazy rules about staff bathrooms, and we are not seeing huge outbreaks among healthcare workers from toilets (though maybe hard to study).

I am conflicted about descending on Idaho and the possibility of another outbreak like in Sun Valley. Yet I plan to be as meticulous as possible - mask and gloves at gas stations/ATMs, all shopping at home, wipe down truck before and after shuttle, only family in truck, etc.

The idea of testing trip members prior is interesting. Carvedog, I haven't researched the home study you mentioned, but I can say there are a lot of tests out there with relatively high false positive and false negative results. We really struggled with this at our hospital which was at the initial epicenter of the outbreak, and even with the best test out there we see patients with classic COVID-19 test negative initially, then positive on a subsequent test. As a healthcare worker, I will definitely test prior to going - though I am 99% sure I had COVID-19 the week prior to our first cases. Testing or not, it will be important that everyone on the trip 100% commits to NOT going if they have any sign of illness - it doesn't matter if the symptoms start at the launch, it doesn't matter if it is the permit holder and the whole trip gets cancelled at the last minute.

Despite everything I said above, I am going to continue to research this, am going to discuss with our head of Infectious Disease (which I am dreading - though an outdoorsy guy he is pretty cautious), and I am going to see what happens over the next 2 months. Our understanding of the virus and how to protect ourselves evolves quickly - each week our infection control policies seem to change. If the staged opening of Idaho is a disaster, well the decision is made for us.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #27
 
Seattle, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5
Keep it family

Hi all,

Thanks to (most) for the thoughtful posts. Your plans and considerations have given me a lot to (re)consider. But bottom-line - it's a 48 mile bike shuttle to run the Rogue, so that's our first multi-day for the summer, as soon as school lets out for my kids. We'll see how it goes and then plan some more.

I'm not Doctor Dave (even if I, too, live and work in Kirkland), so it's not a normal reaction for me to grap PPE before helping someone. And there's just too many times where someone needs help on trips - simple stuff like a minor slice in kitchen, or a boat getting hung up, or ...

The most recent stuff I've read on CoVID transmission highlights (time x proximity). For 99% of a river trip, we can minimize that. But it's the heart pumping moments that can happen (and the yelling or 1st aid that accompany those moments) that give me pause. I don't want to be out there and have any reservations about working as a team to help one another. And I don't see any way to avoid having reservations, other than family-only.

I'm lucky to have two teenagers that love to kayak with me, and we live in Western WA, with lots of day trips we can bike shuttle. The Sky bike shuttle is about 10 minutes. There are lots of 30 minute bike shuttles. So until state and county lands close again, we've got whitewater options.

What ever you decide, be safe out there. Hopefully staying safe won't ruin the fun and comraderie of river-time.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #28
 
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lafayette or Grand Lake, Depends on mood, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
LMAO thanks,

I am a little depressed, was planning a epic year of rafting. If I sound like a whining, selfish boater, it is because I am. The luck of the draw was great to me this year, the luck of the Irish not so much lately. I could not ever bring myself to violate the various Governors rules of the states I need to pass through or raft in, so I'm hoping Quarantining for 14 days goes away in 14 days.

But you got a good chuckle out of me.

Our new launch safety lecture will have to include, stay safe, looking forward to seeing you all again at the takeout.
Montana Governor came through just in time. I hit the Smith June 1st. Sent out e-mails about new safety health thoughts for everyone's input. It will be an all family trip with one exception, great friend that adds so much to a trip, he is a always invite, no matter what. We plan to mask the cooks and anyone near or entering the kitchen area. Everyone will bring their own hand sanitizer and carry at all times. We will wash everything over and over and hope the river gods watch over us. I'm actually more worried about the up and back trip then on the river. Seven hundred miles of exposure to strange gas pumps, restrooms and extra exposure to people we do not know. That risk is not going away in the foreseeable future in my opinion. The only choice is to stay home and sloooowly die on your couch or take a risk. This thread has been a good one.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #29
 
Western Slope, Colorado
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 35
Update on CDC Guidance on transmission

Thought this was interesting and topical to this thread:

The CDC has updated its guidance on the spread of the virus on this page along with caveats that they still don't understand everything about it and people need to be diligent.

Apparently the "lives on surfaces for 3 days" was not peer reviewed information so now surface transmission is ranked as low and "not thought to be the main way the virus spreads"

Be vigilant. Be safe. But this might ease some anxiety.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...nsmission.html
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #30
 
Boise, Idaho
Paddling Since: 2008
Join Date: Jan 2012
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I think everyone should be scared shitless and stay home so that way I can have the river all to myself But on a serious note, I am really sorry for everyone who has been impacted. I agree we should just be smart about who we are going with and how we take care of ourselves before and during the trip.
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