Thoughts on changing the Westwater permit system? - Mountain Buzz

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Old 02-24-2017   #1
Carbondale, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 126
Thoughts on changing the Westwater permit system?

Came across this fb page that wants to change the Westwater permitting system to I honeslty am against it and was wondering what everyone else thinks.

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Old 02-25-2017   #2
lmyers's Avatar
Buena Vista, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,824
"NOW is the prime time to tell Westwater that we want to see their permit system move to and streamline our permitting process for future years. If we miss this opportunity we may be faced with more confusing webpages and processes.".........

Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I think it's nice that Westwater and Cataract offer a more personalized permit system where you can obtain a launch without paying to enter a lottery.... plus isn't perfect either.

I would prefer it to remain the way it is.
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Old 02-25-2017   #3
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,773
WTF? You're kidding me. The only thing I can think of is that the person who started the page must 1) have figured out how to game the system, 2) be so socially anxious that he's morbidly afraid to speak to another human being on the phone or 3) be an astroturf FB page by the contractor that runs If there's a good reason to go to, let's hear it but in the mean time I'm with Logan.

I'm sure the system will go to one day anyway but see no reason to do it any sooner.

Here's the email to weigh in on it and express appreciation for the hard work the BLM does working the permit system: [email protected]

Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 02-25-2017   #4
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C. Springs, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,871
Looks like another group has formed to appose it on's a face off on facebooger.

I don't like the monopoly that REC has become.....on who gets to have fun.... on public lands.
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Old 02-25-2017   #5
Aurora, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 623
The three fundamental problems with the WW system, in my opinion, are:

1. It's separate from Ruby and the two systems don't allow for or give any help to groups trying to link the trips into one.

2. Call in systems are fundamentally unfair. Many people can't just drop work at 8am to call in.

3. First come, first served permit systems are fundamentally unfair. People who work don't have a chance compared to people who don't or who have extremely flexible work schedules.

Lotteries, like mail-in ballots for voting, allow us to have flexibility with when and how we notify the agency that we'd like a permit for a given day. I don't like, but I think it's a better alternative than "first five people to call in get the permits."
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Old 02-25-2017   #6
Salida, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 935
If I remember correctly, WW changed the permit system to reduce a very high cancellation rate, which has apparently worked.

It seems I've been able to get through almost every time I seek a permit there, and it's usually within 10-15 minutes max to get through and sign up. Their cancellation policy is clear as well.

My issue with is how they release cancellations. To just randomly post them so the first person who sees it is not a fair way to allocate them, that is where the true time sink needed to monitor their website comes into play for me. So I would hope they would form a mailing list for cancellation notices on each river they manage, GC style.

I also agree with the principle of combining it somehow with Ruby/HT, but that gets a little complicated with the different skill sets required for each stretch. Perhaps just the ability to schedule all R/HT camps based on a launch date 60 days out, not the 60 day advance for individual sites would make it so we can book them without having to visit the reservation page for 3 consecutive days.

I am fine with the current WW system and I feel the private contractor won't improve it. If they could, I'd want to know how they think they are improving it before it's implemented.
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Old 02-25-2017   #7
Salt Lake City, Utah
Paddling Since: 2008
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 489
Bummer if it goes to

The current system works great. If you think combining with ruby is hard now, it'll be more difficult if it goes to the govey website.

I am a working stiff and have never had a problem getting a permit due to work restraints.

I am curious to know the reason that this is being discussed. Are people not savvy enough to get on westy that they need help?

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Old 02-25-2017   #8
Salt Lake City, Utah
Paddling Since: 2008
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 489
Oh, I forgot to say BOO on Adam Wibby.
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Old 02-25-2017   #9
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Summit County, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2006
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 459
Dealing with has not been a great experience at all especially if you are doing river permits. If you have a question....they typically refer you to the BLM office in that region, only to be told to go to The people there are just phone and computer people! I like to be able to talk to a human being that knows what I'm asking or even knows where the river IS!
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Old 02-25-2017   #10
Sandy, Utah
Paddling Since: 1988
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5
Both Adam and T.M are in the wrong! If it is not broke do not fix it! If they both keep it up, it will eventually ruin it for us all! I need a break from T.M anyways! He is a little too power hungry and there is a reason that they will not induct him into the JWP museums hall of fame!
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