What are your thoughts? I approached the main rapid this time of year on the Snake River near Jackson Hole, “Lunch Counter”, where a kayaker was playing in the main wave expecting him to move; this is a place where kayakers and surfers play for a bit, duck out and paddle back up. They can hit this particular rapid again and again all day. Well, he didn’t yield. I plowed right into him sideways and my oar was over him and the kayak. We both had pissed off looks on our faces. I couldn’t row, and could have really creamed him. I’m still pissed. I could have missed the 1st main wave and avoided this, but never have I seen a surfer or kayaker fail to yield. Rafters get one shot at the rapid and it’s why most come. The kayaker could hit it all day. I’m just venting and curious about other’s thoughts.
I would be pissed off too, there was only one, the fun does not start till you have 3 to 4 lined up just right. I have run trips with kayakers in tow, they usually run safety and know they are more maneuverable and faster than a raft. If they don't see you, give them a shout or give them a good shot of water over their bow with you oar.
I think you should have not been pissed off. Just run over him with glee. I would try to hit him right under the nose. With the rise of the nose it will turn him sideways and kind of roll him right over gently. Or so. If you are lucky you will hear him trying to set up for a roll right when he gets under your feet. Hitting him sideways just makes the kayaker kind of stuck in that gray area of getting run over, but not getting run over.
I run that rapid regularly. Kayaks and surfers yield or they get run over. That train IS the reason for the run and they well know it. If they want to sneak under my river left oar I’m down with that. Never had one not yield for the very reasons you stated. They will get back on the wave. It’ll be cold tomorrow. The river traffic will,be slower. He can play then.
I haven't run that river...but I had a run in with a kayaker on the Middle Fork Salmon that had a bunch of attitude when our group came around a corner and him and literally 40 of his buddies were running a rapid the last day. They didn't post anyone upstream warning us and there was nowhere we could have fit one raft...not to mention the 6 or 7 that were on our trip. The dude paddled over to me and started this whole passive agressive rant about "how would we feel if they busted through our group" and stuff. I mostly just looked at him blankly but basically said "rafts have the right of way...we can't just stop in the middle of a rapid and you guys can..." and he paddled off before I could finish my sentence.
I don't think a lot kayakers and other small craft have an understanding on what it takes to maneuver a raft and how you can't really make last minute ferries or catch micro eddies or many of the things that a kayak has no problem with. I've been a kayaker since I was 12...but I've done a lot of rafting in that time too and always give them the space (and politely ask for it from kayakers too). Most know that already...but not all of them.
I feel like river surfers aren't as knowledgeable either and are maybe prone to more attitude. I just say chaulk it up to "players gonna hate". I wouldn't get to pissed and wouldn't worry too much about pissing them off. Pretty common knowledge that upstream traffic gets right of way.
I’ve been kayaking longer than rafting. If I’m in a raft, I really don’t worry about a collision with a kayaker. The other way around is a different story. Can’t wait for common sense to become common again.
In your situation, little hurty McFeelins kayaker wouldn’t have ruined my day one bit.
I reread what I wrote and need to clarify. I meant, I don't worry about my personal safety while in a raft if a kayak is going to hit us. If I'm in a kayak, I certainly worry about getting hit by a raft.
I would never intentionally hit a kayaker surfing but having both rafted and surfed Kahuna and Lunch Counter waves, I feel the kayaker needs to get out of the way. I bet the kayakers who have been there for awhile flipped that guy shit in the eddy after he got mowed. They know they need to be on their toes and that rafts will be coming though all day.
I'll usually be glad to do a few back strokes to make sure they see me, or even eddy out above, if possible, if it's a super wave they can only catch on the fly. But when it's a wave with eddy service and you're coming though on a raft, I don't know what they expect you to do. If they don't get out of the way, they're asking to be run over.
Agreed. There's a similar super popular surf wave on the Lochsa - Pipeline. It has eddy service and is even more popular now with board surfers than kayakers.
Fortunately, it's got a large-ish eddy above, and it's not hard to eddy out in 4-5 rafts to let one guy finish his sesh. If someone else jumps on as they exit the wave and we're peeling out of the eddy, too bad.
A vast majority of my river miles are in a kayak. But I also have significant miles on oars-- that's where my perspective comes from.
Downstream travel has right of way on a river. For safety and common sense.
While there may be preconceived etiquette, real world application doesn't always reflect this, whether driving, walking, or running rivers. I have experienced the kayak-surf/raft scenario many times from the seat of my kayak, while rowing, paddle guiding, or seen from a nearby eddy. Most instances are unremarkable because everyone is having a good time, wants to keep one another safe, and has good control of their craft.
I hear 2 common themes: rafts have the right of way and downstream traffic has the right of way. I was taught (and have taught others) the latter--downstream traffic has the right of way. I lean this way because it is more universal and I love to surf in a raft. If I am surfing a feature and a kayaker is coming downstream, I yield to them as they have the right of way. I also do not like moving off of a preferred line to avoid someone who is not or cannot yield the right of way, but if I can safely do so I will to avoid putting someone else in danger. However, if I am moving downstream and moving off of a line puts me and my crew in more danger and I have the right of way, I will proceed "right down the middle" because that is the safest course.
There are, as always, exceptions to this...i.e., jet boats coming upstream on the Salmon. They cannot lose their momentum and have the right of way in either direction!
Jet boats on the Salmon are different. If your group is in the rapid (rafts down, or jets up/down), you have the right of way. If another group is in the rapid, everyone else needs to eddy out and let them clear it.
I respectfully disagree regarding “downstream traffic”. If a raft is trying to surf a wave (“trying” being the common operative word) and a kayaker is coming downstream, the raft still has the right of way. If the kayaker wants to surf the wave, or just run the middle line, he/she should generally have plenty of time to see the raft and catch an eddy, or otherwise slow himself down until the raft gets out of the way.
There aren't many rafts who try to surf, and we typically won't be there for long.
And it can generally be assumed that a kayaker coming downstream will be trying to surf there, too.
This is where eye contact, courtesy, and communication come into play.
A lot of good points have been made. Noticeably missing is any talk of courtesy; of working to avoid a kayaker surfing if it is easy to move over or a kayaker sliding out of the way of a raft coming through. Is gleefully running over a kayaker or yelling at a rower what we are becoming?
I suppose it depends more on the culture of that particular wave. If it's already hostile, you're probably not going to change it. If it's friendly, please don't do your part to change it in a negative way!
Mow, mow, mow your boat gently down the stream. It's a wonder common sense doesn't prevail... especially with the surfers and supers. They know the etiquette; if not they learn fast.
Downstream travel has right of way on a river. For safety and common sense.
A vast majority of my river miles are in a kayak. But I also have significant miles on oars-- that's where my perspective comes from.
A few guides on Browns Canyon section of the Arkansas river knew me as "that kayaker dude who plays chicken" bc i would wait until the last minute to yield a feature to a commercial paddle raft. I'm sure a few guides got an extra tip for the entertainment we provided-- we all had fun and a few laughs.
The kayaker had a right to stay where he was considering that you had a river wide worth of options. He would have been courteous to yield you the line. Having knowledge that he failed to yield, he'd be carrying his dry bag on the back of his kayak and eating freeze dried next Grand trip.
Talk of deliberately putting another person's health or life at risk is irresponsible and falls into the same category as being self righteous and ignoring reasonable scientific guidance during a pandemic, having fires and fireworks during a fire ban or shooting guns within a half mile no discharge set back of the river. I can think of more broader ranging examples of ill founded personal "liberties" but I'll leave my self righteousness at that, for now.
Talk of deliberately putting another person's health or life at risk is irresponsible and falls into the same category as being self righteous and ignoring reasonable scientific guidance during a pandemic, having fires and fireworks during a fire ban or shooting guns within a half mile no discharge set back of the river.
Nice jump.....and lapse in logic. If the kayaker chooses not to yield the line thru a feature, or cuts it too close that is their fault. Not mine. If I try to slide off the line at the last minute and flip my raft (if you dont't know the rapid, it could flip you), that endangers my peeps. Now who is zooming who? Maybe you don't know the rapid, but you want to be square and in the middle of the flow, not fucking around trying to miss kayakers.
I cut my teeth in my first squirt boat playing for hours a day, plus/minus 1980, on occasional weekends, when I live in Casper. It is where I took my kayak class from Casper College on their "graduation" outing. I know the rapid, the river, pretty damn well. Perhaps it has trended toward arrogance of superior rights of commercials. Very likely, but don't know.
It is not always true that a kayaker on wave is totally aware of oncoming traffic especially if he is in the trough surfing in a long wave train. If he is novice he is dialed into pure adrenaline on that wave. And, the upstream waves such as at Lunch Counter can obscure your awareness. Upstream traffic has got to make certain communications of intent and there is a lot of flats above the wave train we are discussing to assure proper communication.
Regarding jumps of logic, don't take it personal. It was inclusive of logic by other respondents that "their rights are superior to everyone else's".
Now don't go getting yourself all worked up, but to say running over a kayaker is equal to trying to spread a pandemic, shooting at your neighbors camps in the canyon, trying to start fires and God knows what else is pretty much Masters Level Logic Jumping. Working on your PHD?
Is your chill button broken? Maybe your sense of humor is gone with the corona.....
I know that on the Middle Fork, the rangers are quick to instruct that if you see a sweep coming, immediately eddy out. It is not realistic to assume they can (or will) slow down or take an alternative route through a rapid.
I have floated the Alpine stretch more times than I can number. Just to be clear the main event on the Alpine stretch is two or three rapids (depending on water levels). Lunch counter is the main event above 5-6,000 cfs. Kahuna below that water level. Communicating my presence has become crucial as I have both avoided and run over kayakers. I have also been over-run by commercial paddle boats. Unfortunately, on a typical July/August, there is too much traffic to wait for a kayaker to vacate (only to be replaced by another) or to slow down without being over-run.
Nothing malicious in running over another boater on my part. Once in the setup phase of a rapid, I am committed to a line.
It's good you let the little varmint go. Maybe that 'yaker will live long enough to learn a thing or two. Sounds like he had the kind of attitude that can embarrass him for a long time, but it's the same attitude that makes him/her a PITA for the present.
There's too many of them; we can't get them all trained forever. One finally gets it figured out and there's 20 more knotheads right behind him. We were/are all fools at one time ourselves. Maybe he's just low on blood sugar at this hour, or maybe he's like this all the time. In either case, I've got a river to run.
'Yakers are more maneuverable than any 18' floating beach. The rafts have more water pushing on them, determining where they will be in the next few seconds. That's why downstream traffic often has the right-of-way. They can't stop or turn around and go back. Upstream traffic can. Seems some people require getting rolled by a few rafts as part of their education. If they want to hang on a wave ... briefly ... that's okay with me. Sure, I'll hold back ... briefly, while he gets a few minutes of wave time. Then, two blasts on a whistle and I'm moving out and I'll be coming through. It's kinda like the semi-truck and the motorcycle sharing the road. Even when the motorcycle has the right-of-way, he's a danmed fool to get out there and argue the point! Or the rowing skiff that gets in the way of an ocean-going barge ... the barge operator can't stop or turn, so the skiff had danmed well better! It's like my Pomeranian that thinks he's the Lion King when he comes up against a Doberman. We gotta share the water.
It's kinda like the fool who tells the river that By God he has the right to run that Class V+ water and the river had just better like it. Some points are too stupid to argue, but ...
Thanks for the vids, Jerry. Uh, yeah, I'm going straight down the middle squared up and pushing forward on that one. I'll be standing up on the approach and hope anyone down in the trough sees me, but I'm not getting off that one. single. line.
I've floated that section many times over the years,The surfers know to yield to rafts or even kayaks that are running it, or they should know, when they come through the counter, perhaps the kayaker didn't see you or miscalculated. Either way you can't hold back there and wait for them to be done surfing, or if you move from your line in high water your likely to flip in lunch counter,
so they know the drill there so they should yield.
My two cents
If it looks like that video, then you are dick for going through the center-left of that wave regardless of your precious right of way. Lack of boat control and right of way seem to go together though.
Also if a surfing kayaker can see upstream they re stoopid to not move off to the side and stay on the surf.
As far as they can hop back on and play all day... you are assuming people have all day. An ounce of courtesy and everyone has a better day.
It totally surprises that GeoRon paddling since 1974 & all his experience would not uphold the truth of the matter that "Up river folks have the right away" simple as that. I'm a kayaker that is often with my larger boater buddies & if I'm playing in a hole especially a bizzy one such as Lunch Counter & I choose to not relent to oncoming traffic then the consequences are mine to accept.
Certainly GeoRon we are not hoping for anyone on the river to sustain injuries but common sense says "Get the Hell out of the way or get run over". I absolutely don't expect a raft to have to miss one of the best rapids in the run because a very maneuverable kayak won't yield especially when there is eddy service. Accidents do happen; but lets have "lack of common sense" play as little as possible in those situations.
I can surf to the shoulder in my kayak to let another boat pass, just like the upstream boat can easily move aside. If the first thing you think when spotting a kayak surfing is, "I have the right of way," then you are a dickhead with marginal boat control skills.
While there may be preconceived etiquette, real world application doesn't always reflect this, whether driving, walking, or running rivers. I have experienced the kayak-surf/raft scenario many times from the seat of my kayak, while rowing, paddle guiding, or seen from a nearby eddy. Most instances are unremarkable because everyone is having a good time, wants to keep one another safe, and has good control of their craft.
Mountainbuzz is now overrun with keyboard warrior rafters. If you unintelligently run over a kayak with your raft, and I see it, I will personally ruin your day on the river.
Mountainbuzz is now overrun with keyboard warrior rafters. If you unintelligently run over a kayak with your raft, and I see it, I will personally ruin your day on the river.
Slightly different take on this thread. What is the rule for rafts going through a whitewater park. Couple of weeks ago I was taking some friends down the Salida town run. 2 rafts were brand new.
There is a stop above the first drop. Not sure if the newbies would have been read. On the entry drop I tried backing off a couple strokes to give a SUP surfer a bit of time but the rafts started backing up. I gave the surfer (teen) a warning shout but ended up knocking him off.
What's the rule if you are rafting through a ww park?
Things are no different in a whitewater park than any other river. Watercraft travelling downstream travel has the right of way.
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