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Old 01-10-2020   #71
 
Salida, Colorado
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Originally Posted by cupido76 View Post
Ugh. I thought this was a rafting forum, no?

If I wanted to watch people trade entrenched and unwavering opinions and insults I'd watch reality TV.

Agreed.... I hear the rock crawling forums make discussions such as this one look tame....

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Old 01-10-2020   #72
 
Blue River, Colorado
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I never thought posting about invasive mussels would evoke so much crazy talk... I've noticed that it's more the folks that side with Greta that get so triggered when they feel their line of thinking is questioned. I can't claim to know what the climate is doing. And I don't argue that humans are a possible cause of some negative actions and consequences. But it's a little difficult to discuss thoughts and ideas when one side is so entrenched. But that seems to be the way anything remotely political goes now.

I find it funny that rather than focusing on emissions, etc., we should be more concerned about the heat coming out of the Fukashima memy down. We rarely hear about that anymore (although maybe that's my fault for cancelling cable TV). I'm more concerned that all the efforts we humans make to reduce carbon footprints aren't even making a dent to offset the hot water spilling out of that place. Doesn't mean I'm not for common sense conservation. But in the grand scheme, let's be real about how much impact we think we humans have as individuals.

But back to the thread origin... I feel that all the effort in the world to try and keep the mussels out of water bodies is lost the second one of those buggers sneaks past human inspection. Then what?
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Old 01-10-2020   #73
 
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Originally Posted by cdcfly View Post
But back to the thread origin... I feel that all the effort in the world to try and keep the mussels out of water bodies is lost the second one of those buggers sneaks past human inspection. Then what?
I don't understand the exact mechanism by which they propagate, but I've heard of a couple anecdotes where mussel larva have been found in MT, but not in sufficient quantity to be a concern?


...or does one Larva take 200 years to become a problem, but a couple hundred (or thousand) become a problem in a few short years?

Off to Google.
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Old 01-10-2020   #74
 
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Originally Posted by cdcfly View Post
I never thought posting about invasive mussels would evoke so much crazy talk... I've noticed that it's more the folks that side with Greta that get so triggered when they feel their line of thinking is questioned. I can't claim to know what the climate is doing. And I don't argue that humans are a possible cause of some negative actions and consequences. But it's a little difficult to discuss thoughts and ideas when one side is so entrenched. But that seems to be the way anything remotely political goes now.

I find it funny that rather than focusing on emissions, etc., we should be more concerned about the heat coming out of the Fukashima memy down. We rarely hear about that anymore (although maybe that's my fault for cancelling cable TV). I'm more concerned that all the efforts we humans make to reduce carbon footprints aren't even making a dent to offset the hot water spilling out of that place. Doesn't mean I'm not for common sense conservation. But in the grand scheme, let's be real about how much impact we think we humans have as individuals.

But back to the thread origin... I feel that all the effort in the world to try and keep the mussels out of water bodies is lost the second one of those buggers sneaks past human inspection. Then what?
cdcfly,

mikepart a few postings ago provided a long list of scientific institutes that know to a great extent what the climate is doing, which is, heating up. That is settled science. Like in California, one years extreme drought and fires in Australia may be followed the next year by extreme flooding.

Andy provided a long strip chart which at the bottom is the famous "hockey stick" showing heat rising around the planet and what the likely future of global temperatures will be. Frequently that graph will include green house gas levels in the atmosphere. As Andy post implied, it is a perfect match. Green house gases cause global temperatures to heat up, case closed. As the planet heats up individual weather events and tracks will get more unusually in more unpredicted ways. It could even be "it never snows in June here, what the heck!" just like as you heat up a pot of water you can see the water swirl around.

Having worked with global weather models Fukashima is really no hotter than a steel mill, oil refinery or similar point sources. Even the roof tops and pavement of cities is actually a greater heat concern.

When you say lets be real.... do you mean the impact of a single individual? or the impact of humans as a whole? One human, almost no impact. All human at this time amount to a huge impact called climate change.

Those mussels are going to be hard to beat.
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Old 01-10-2020   #75
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Tear Down the Dam Walls

This is not hypothetical. It has already happened and it will continue to happen, with or without invasive policing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdcfly View Post
all the effort in the world to try and keep the mussels out of water bodies is lost the second one of those buggers sneaks past human inspection. Then what?
To take a stab at at an answer: The invasive mussels pose little to no problem in river ecosystems, and the threat subsides once the dams fail. Free-flowing rivers are not vulnerable to invasive mussels. Invasive dams and reservoirs provide habitat for invasive species. The approach required to protect the lake component of the native freshwater ecosystems of North America poses a distinct question from protecting rivers.

What won't happen: Acceptance by reactionary Boatflakes, the Wrecked Bureau, or the self-anointed Water Mullahs that the attempts to replace rivers with plumbing must and will fail, whether by invasive mussel or other ecological response to invasive plumbing. Many thought economic rationales would bring down the dams, but if that were true, the dams never would have gone up.
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Old 01-10-2020   #76
 
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Originally Posted by Droboat View Post
This is not hypothetical. It has already happened and it will continue to happen, with or without invasive policing.


To take a stab at at an answer: The invasive mussels pose little to no problem in river ecosystems, and the threat subsides once the dams fail. Free-flowing rivers are not vulnerable to invasive mussels. Invasive dams and reservoirs provide habitat for invasive species. The approach required to protect the lake component of the native freshwater ecosystems of North America poses a distinct question from protecting rivers.

What won't happen: Acceptance by reactionary Boatflakes, the Wrecked Bureau, or the self-anointed Water Mullahs that the attempts to replace rivers with plumbing must and will fail, whether by invasive mussel or other ecological response to invasive plumbing. Many thought economic rationales would bring down the dams, but if that were true, the dams never would have gone up.
Droboats, Do you have a reference saying that "Free-flowing rivers are not vulnerable"? It would be great if that is true.
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Old 01-10-2020   #77
 
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Originally Posted by cdcfly View Post
I've noticed that it's more the folks that side with Greta that get so triggered when they feel their line of thinking is questioned.
cdcfly,
It bothered me so much that you'd accuse Greta of being hard headed that I spent an hour thinking about "How do I explain the scientific method." So,,,,,

You and a buddy walk into a room that contains a machine that spits out a ball every time you push a button. You are told that the machine contains 100 balls. After 99 balls come out all red your buddy with no basis of knowledge bets you $100 that the last ball is green. All triggered up you ask him, "what makes you think it is green!?!?" Well, he says, "all the other balls were red." , you say, "why green?, why not blue or yellow in which case I still win?" He say, "Well, I like green." Would you take up your buddies bet of $100? I think I'd try to raise the bet to a $1000 that the last ball is not green. Why you ask me, well because I'm a scientist.

And no!!!!, I won't tell you what color the last ball turned out to be.

When it comes to climate science you really are down to the last few balls in the machine and so far they've all been red. Have I seen all the red balls? No, but I promise you that 100's of people looked at each ball to confirm it was red. That is called peer reviewed science.

That is why I, we get triggered up. It is not an opinion, it is science. The red ball is:
Climate change is happening now.
It is caused by green house gases.
The planets is not going to respond kindly.
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Old 01-10-2020   #78
 
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Old 01-10-2020   #79
 
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I'm sorry Noah. I tried to simplify basic statistics and it use in making the most plausible scientific conclusions. Can you please help explain it better? Do you think I should approach it as a discussion of Occam's Razor? Or perhaps as a discussion of correlation coefficients?
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Old 01-12-2020   #80
 
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Originally Posted by caverdan View Post
Thank you caverdan. I hope you don't mind but I've acknowledged you at the bottom of the flow reports for your contribution of the two above links. These links are itemized at the bottom of the flow report as LINK1 and LINK2 associated with the explanation of "MUSSELS! DCD" next to the name of possibly contaminated river runs. Note that I also refer to possible contamination more generically as "MUSSELS" rather than "ZEBBRA".
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