Would a Whitewater Dories subforum be a possibility? - Page 2 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 09-14-2018   #11
 
Salida, Colorado
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If they did, I'm in !! Just got the boat of my dreams, a modified 18 foot Briggs GC dory and sure would like to network with other dorymen out there.

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Old 09-14-2018   #12
 
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Kalispell, Montana
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Originally Posted by MNichols View Post
If they did, I'm in !! Just got the boat of my dreams, a modified 18 foot Briggs GC dory and sure would like to network with other dorymen out there.
Who is the builder?

I'm planning a 17' build from Andy H plans
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Old 09-14-2018   #13
 
Salida, Colorado
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Originally Posted by MT4Runner View Post
Who is the builder?

I'm planning a 17' build from Andy H plans



Sweet, Fretwater boatworks in Flagstaff, I attended Brad's class this February, 8 of us built a 17 foot Briggs Dory in 8 days, and I saw Bears Ears and just had to have it.



Here's a short video depicting Brad, rowing my new boat


https://www.outsideonline.com/2312051/boatmaker
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Old 09-14-2018   #14
 
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Kalispell, Montana
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Originally Posted by MNichols View Post
Sweet, Fretwater boatworks in Flagstaff, I attended Brad's class this February, 8 of us built a 17 foot Briggs Dory in 8 days, and I saw Bears Ears and just had to have it.

Here's a short video depicting Brad, rowing my new boat

https://www.outsideonline.com/2312051/boatmaker
That's awesome! I've been following his blog and have seen a lot of pics of your boat!! She's a beauty.

A guy local to me has the "class boat" from 2016 or 2017 - the 'South Fork'. I've built several wooden kayaks, and have fiberglassing skills...so I plan to do a glass/wood boat instead of wood on ribs, so he recommended I do an Andy H plan.
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Old 09-14-2018   #15
 
Salida, Colorado
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That's awesome! I've been following his blog and have seen a lot of pics of your boat!! She's a beauty.

A guy local to me has the "class boat" from 2016 or 2017 - the 'South Fork'. I've built several wooden kayaks, and have fiberglassing skills...so I plan to do a glass/wood boat instead of wood on ribs, so he recommended I do an Andy H plan.

Yep, I didn't win the "class boat", so Bears Ears it was. I had a Mackenzie dory, took it down the grand and got beat up pretty bad by the water, the sides are much steeper on a Mackenzie than on a Briggs design and the rake of the bow is much lower, so the water goes under the boat on a Briggs, it rides up much more than a Mackenzie, as opposed to pushing it around.





Not to mention that the ribs give it amazing strength, and stronger bulkheads, leading to a stronger deck. Stitch and glue Mackenzie's, which is what Andy's designs are I believe, work great on smaller rivers, but as I have gravitated to the big water as I get older, I was looking for a boat that did just that !
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Old 09-14-2018   #16
 
Carbondale, Colorado
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Don't mean to speak for Andy but pretty sure he builds Briggs design for the most part
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Old 09-14-2018   #17
 
Salida, Colorado
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I can't say for certain but stitch and glue dories are, to the best of my knowledge, Mackenzie, but I'm FAR from an authority on the subject. Brad said Andy was only doing that type of construction these days, but to be sure I'd contact Andy.



I remember Brad saying that now that Jerry Briggs has passed, and Derald, who ran Canonita Dories out of Durango passed, that he's (Brad) one of the only people left that are building the Briggs design. I hope that changes due to the classes he was holding.



I remember enough from the class, to do everything but expand the transom, the whole half breadth thing on the lofting blows my mind. He explained it twice, and I don't think anybody in the class had it perfectly down. The lofting as a whole, took me 2 days before I was comfortable and understood it. A whole different world to me, who being a welder fabricator, used to using blueprints, was used to.


The Briggs is a lot more work to construct, at least initially, as you have to make the ribs and bulkhead assemblies, then the sides, and as he said, now that you've made your kit, it's time to assemble it, and assemble we did. Went very fast from that point, especially as the boat "Faired" itself, and you used the lofting less and less and the boat's shape more and more, especially once you had the gunwales steamed and clamped on. You went from taking the measurements off the lofting, to spiling for your patterns.



Sorry for the novella, probably more information than you wanted
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Old 09-14-2018   #18
 
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MNichols, on the contrary, I'd like to hear more. How did you make the leap from welder/fabricator to learning, building, and owning a wooden boat?

I'm definitely a metal guy, but have a ton of respect for builders and owners of the wooden boats. Working on a design for a laser cut aluminum, all tig'ed "grand canyon/brad dimock" style 17-18' x 54" ish boat. Currently in research, sketch and picture gathering stage, hope to start on solidworks model in a few months when work slows a bit. In my mind the design is a synthesis of McKenzie, Eddyline, Brad Dimock, and Pavati.
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Old 09-14-2018   #19
 
Salida, Colorado
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Ok, well I'll give it a shot.



I can build you anything that can be built out of metal, it will be square, straight and plumb if that's a requirement. I can machine parts to a .0001 tolerance and integrate that easily. Mechanisms, no problem!! Wood on the other hand has always been a challenge. If I weld a joint, it stays where I welded it. Wood on the other hand, not so much, so I always shied away and had others make me things out of wood that I needed. Not that I can't do it, but there was always those things that others wouldn't see, but I knew about thing that bothered me, being a hyper critical anal retentive SOB. I guess that's what you get with a degree in Mechanical Engineering where perfection and absolutes are drummed into your head for 4 long years.. Halfway into the class, Brad grabbed me and said, "Take it easy, we're not building a Steinway piano here, Let the boat "fair" itself and work with that"... Truer words were never spoken, as we all started to work with what the boat had become, not what was drawn on the lofting table so much.



The dory, well it really scared me at first. Nothing, and I mean nothing at all was straight, square or even measurable for that matter, I looked at it and thought, well it's impossible to duplicate, there's not even a blueprint to go off of, just this thing called the table of offsets, think Excel spreadsheet with numbers on it. Feet, inches and eights, and you transferred those measurements to a 20 x 4 foot piece of paper on the lofting table. Now get this, it's ALL in half breadths, only half of the boat do you have measurements for. Of course, the other side of the center-line was exactly the same, but you're only looking at half of the picture. Couple this with the transom, replete with rolling bevels and diminishing angles, wow. I thought it a machining nightmare to make with AL, but wood you can shape with a plane and such, whereas metal needs to be machined.



Back to the lofting



Connect all the dots using ice picks driven into the table at the marks you made, and wrap a wooden batten around them, draw the line, and viola! Seemed easy enough, but at first It took a lot of time for me to dismiss all the nagging things that I'd consider were I building from a blueprint. I just let it happen, and after listening to Brad, who is a very good teacher, and in and of that I mean he taught so everyone in the class understood what he was saying, if not immediately, shortly into the process. Many teachers teach to either the highest, or the lowest common denominator, not Brad.



I'd be interested in hearing about your progress and process, the Eddyline aluminum boats were built off of Bears Ears lofting, the boat was built as a prototype for Eddyline to build for the commercial company AZRA. There's a you tube video floating around out there of Eddyline's shop building them. No real detail, but shows the process in sort of time lapse. Interesting to watch. Having spent many many hours GTAW welding, I felt for them watching it go together. Not a fast process considering how fast AL conducts heat, and warps. Alumaweld, who used to make McKenzie hulls used strongbacks to make their hulls, but I never saw one at the Eddyline shop in the video.



Finally, the wooden boat love affiar came about after my 16 foot McKenzie, which was based on the alumaweld hull, and fully decked / self bailing. 3 issues i had with that boat, some may not agree with my feelings, but here they are. First, they are cold. Cold feeling, I got hit in a snowstorm on Deso, and by the time we managed to get to camp, I was bordering on hypothermia, secondly the inside of the hatches, while AL ones can be made to seal very well vs wood, gathered tons of condensation despite opening them, mopping them out with a sponge, and airing out every night, everything was always damp, if not wet in the hatches.



Lastly, they are impossible to repair on the river, which with a can or 4 of epoxy and a 3 pound hammer might not seem that daunting of a task, but after the AL corrodes a little, the epoxy doesn't stick, and the moisture from the condensation keeps it from curing properly. I nailed a rock running left at Lava, not a huge hit to the chine, but a hit none the less. I tried in vain, for hours at each camp to staunch the flow of water, and despite $200 bucks of "poxy quick" marine epoxy the best I could do was to staunch the flow a little bit.



2 years later, a friend let me row his wooden Briggs design Canonita dory down Westwater and I was in love. They IMHO handled WAY better than the McKenzies in big water, the warmth and feel of the wood was astounding, they rode UP on the waves as opposed to slicing thru like the McKenzie's do, at the end of the day, I knew a big ol wooden boat was in my future, and after taking the class ( I want to take it again IF he holds one again) I felt confident in my abilities to build one, and one day I will, but running Bears Ears will likely take up a LOT of my time in the near future >grin<



Any Dorymen got a 2019 grand permit and need another gaily painted eggshell to round out the trip (HINT HINT) I've already been down this year, so I can't go again


Hope this satisfies your curiosity, ask anything you'd like, I'll do my best to fill in the gaps.
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Old 09-14-2018   #20
 
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Don't mean to speak for Andy but pretty sure he builds Briggs design for the most part
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Originally Posted by MNichols View Post
I can't say for certain but stitch and glue dories are, to the best of my knowledge, Mackenzie, but I'm FAR from an authority on the subject. Brad said Andy was only doing that type of construction these days, but to be sure I'd contact Andy.
Maybe a bit of terminology crossover between design and construction.


A Mackenzie-style dory design (generally) has a continuous rounded bottom rocker, less sheer rocker, and has steeper (more plumb) stem, stern, and sides.

A "Briggs"-style (design) has a flat midsection in the bottom rocker, more sheer rocker (may or may not have a flat mid gunnel/sheer corresponding with the flat in the floor/chine) and has more flare to the sides, with more rake (less vertical) in the bowpost and transom (stem and stern).



Construction: while historic dories--including fishing, Mckenzie, and built by Mr. Briggs himself were built with plywood-on-frame or plank-on-frame construction, any type of boat can be built frameless with just plywood, and then covered with fiberglass/epoxy.

May require a jig to hold the plywood shape until the glass/epoxy cures, or the panel curvature and stiffness itself may define the shape enough to set the boat's shape.

Andy Hutchinson has both Mckenzie-style and Briggs-style hull designs listed as available on his website.
Dory Designs | High Desert Dories

Brad Dimock (or so I have heard second-hand and from reading his blog) prefers framed construction and has a love-hate affair with "frozen snot" (fiberglass/epoxy in his words).
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