Would a Whitewater Dories subforum be a possibility? - Page 14 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 01-12-2020   #131
 
Salida, Colorado
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Originally Posted by lmyers View Post
I'm not an admin, just a lowly moderator, but I am impressed that this thread has lived this long and do think that alone should hold some weight with WHOEVER is pulling the strings these days...

Thanks, one would hope with over 14K impressions that we'd stand a chance of getting one. What impresses me is this thread HAS lived this long without being hijacked and spun into a political hate fest.



EM, glad it worked, was a pleasure meeting you, shame it was so cold and windy, would have liked to had time to chat more.



Raymo, yep, they are certainly unusual wooden rowboats for unusual people in a peculiar world as Brad Dimock says..

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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #132
 
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Since we still don't have a Dory specific forum...

I'm definitely going to get a Johnson SPX bilge pump and have basically decided to get the 2200gph one... but part of me wants to get the 4000 gph version. It draws a lot more power and I'll need to do bigger tubing...but it also removes twice as much water too.

Anyone have any input on this one. The Chub by Eddyline Welding (a 14' Aluminum Dory), which I almost bought, uses the 2200...but I've seen some other guys use the 4k one (Mike Guryan's Wild Child for one).

Also...I'm planning on putting it in the captains bay under the foot pegs. It should be relatively easy to work to route the tubes from the front and back wells into it there and then put a tube to the side port.

Also... I've seen people say that a battery lasted an entire trip...but I'm not sure if that was topping it off with a solar charger or not. Any input on that aspect?

I just saw a video of what can happen when the boat gets loaded up with water...so a nice reliable bilge system sounds like a relatively necessary thing to have in big water when you only have one passenger or want to go solo.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #133
 
Salida, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Mayhem View Post
Since we still don't have a Dory specific forum...

I'm definitely going to get a Johnson SPX bilge pump and have basically decided to get the 2200gph one... but part of me wants to get the 4000 gph version. It draws a lot more power and I'll need to do bigger tubing...but it also removes twice as much water too.

Anyone have any input on this one. The Chub by Eddyline Welding (a 14' Aluminum Dory), which I almost bought, uses the 2200...but I've seen some other guys use the 4k one (Mike Guryan's Wild Child for one).

Also...I'm planning on putting it in the captains bay under the foot pegs. It should be relatively easy to work to route the tubes from the front and back wells into it there and then put a tube to the side port.

Also... I've seen people say that a battery lasted an entire trip...but I'm not sure if that was topping it off with a solar charger or not. Any input on that aspect?

I just saw a video of what can happen when the boat gets loaded up with water...so a nice reliable bilge system sounds like a relatively necessary thing to have in big water when you only have one passenger or want to go solo.

I'm guessing the Crystal run on the GCPBA page, I cringed when I saw her hit the wall.. I actually cringed when I saw her entrance.



Bears Ears has the SPX 2200 with 1.5 piping, I swamped her a couple times in Grand Canyon and she bailed completely empty in a little more than a minute, I didn't time it, but it wasn't long. That being said, it wasn't all the pump, I have scuppers in both passenger compartments, and a overflow drain about 1/2 way up in my footwell, I think these are key in helping the water drain. From my observations, the front and rear passenger compartments drained before my footwell, but they drain INTO a sump in the footwell, so...



My friend Mike Guryan that built the only other copy of the "Bears Ears" class of boat (Wild Child) used the 4000, with 2 inch piping, and said it drained just fine, but you should see the battery he has to carry. I can't remember if he said he had to "top it up" or not. I had toyed with the idea of changing it out to the 4000, it wouldn't be hard, but I'm a weight nazi, and the group 24 (IIRC) battery it needs, (think car battery) is what caused me to keep what I have, which like I said, works fine.



My boat holds a lot more water than yours, If it were me, I'd stay with the 2200.



The captain's footwell is the place for it to be, sitting in it's sump, easy to run the piping against the bulkheads, and should the pump become inundated with silt, you can wiggle it with your foot and get it pumping again. Look on the FB Whitewater Dories page, he's got some photos of his install, he did a super sweet job, actually the nicest I've seen.



Bears Ears has been down GC 3 times so far, 2 each 14 day trips to Diamond, and one 28 day to Pearce. The small battery lasted on the 14 day trips, but my power switch failed one night on the 28 day trip, let the pump suck the battery dry, good thing I had a spare battery, but no spare switch, tied the wires together in auto mode with a pair of hemostats, worked fine.



I carried a 10W solar charger which recharged the dead battery in about 3 days, one day was a layover, and I put the panel out at the end of the other 2 days. I now carry spare switches, a spare pump, and a 50W flexible solar panel in addition to the spare battery, which I primarily use for charging go pro batteries.



One thing I did note, when I bought the replacement pump, it said not to install a check valve. Bears Ears came with a check valve in the outlet, Mike G didn't put one in on his build, so I'm taking mine out this trip and will see if it increases the output without flooding my footwell and cycling the pump all the time.



My outlet tube, like Mike's is as high up the side as you can get it, so I'm thinking the check valve is redundant. I'm hoping so anyway.



And as an aside, you mention running solo. I'd do this in my little 14 foot Canonita Dory Ashkii, but Bears Ears is another matter entirely. I loaded up her hatches with water jugs to simulate a moderate load, and took her to the local lake, after a LOT of trying I got her flipped over, and was unable to flip her back, a "Z" drag off my trailer at the ramp and 2 anchors out into the lake did the trick, but on the river I need at least one more person to get her flipped back over, something to think about.



Hope this helps
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #134
 
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Kalispell, Montana
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After watching the video of Kelly munching the left wall in Crystal...


I woke up last night with a crazy idea.

Why do I have a passenger footwell when I don't want to spend 3 weeks with 4 other people? 4 passengers for a day run? Of course!

I'm thinking....how about a custom drybox that fits tightly and EXACTLY in the rear footwell. yes, water can get between the footwell and box, but on the order of a cup or two...definitely not gallons. Pull it out for day trips with rear guests. Install it for multidays and have another dry hatch that more importantly--KEEPS WATER OUT!

Insane? Genius? Both?
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #135
 
Fort Collins, Colorado
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I had considered something similar only with a cooler. Brad Dimock did some custom coolers with "frozen snot" and I bet you make one the dimensions of your passenger footwell.

fretwaterlines: Frozen Snot
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #136
 
Bend, Oregon
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Someone on the FB Dories group had a large deck section that covered the rear passenger area that was removable for passengers if needed. I think it had a gasket to be "mostly" water tight.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #137
 
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That’s a good idea, except that coolers tend to be densely packed and he wouldn’t want that much mass so far back.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #138
 
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Lakewood, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT4Runner View Post
After watching the video of Kelly munching the left wall in Crystal...


I woke up last night with a crazy idea.

Why do I have a passenger footwell when I don't want to spend 3 weeks with 4 other people? 4 passengers for a day run? Of course!

I'm thinking....how about a custom drybox that fits tightly and EXACTLY in the rear footwell. yes, water can get between the footwell and box, but on the order of a cup or two...definitely not gallons. Pull it out for day trips with rear guests. Install it for multidays and have another dry hatch that more importantly--KEEPS WATER OUT!

Insane? Genius? Both?
The previous owner of Wesley modified the rear passenger well to hold a 140qt cooler. I'm a little worried about it being too heavy but I'll just have to make sure I don't go crazy with packing it. The PO said he really felt like the cooler displaced a lot of water and that he didn't have to bail nearly as much with that modification.

I do like your idea of a custom fit dry box. With that much dry cargo space...there is the same worry of weight that far back in the boat...but again...you'd just have to load the dry box accordingly. I know the two main cross hatches on my boat sure seem vast and cavernous...but I imagine they'll fill up faster then I think and having that extra dry storage.

If you weren't worried about cargo space... it would be kinda cool to get a custom made float bag to do something similar. All of the benefit of way less water in the boat and only minimal weight to do it. Feels like you could get a mesh cargo cover(or just some straps) for the back and just fill it with peoples dry bags too...the lighter ones with sleeping bags and pillows so its not too heavy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MNichols View Post
I'm guessing the Crystal run on the GCPBA page, I cringed when I saw her hit the wall.. I actually cringed when I saw her entrance.
Yeah...I cringed too. I want to try to avoid that. I hit that wall in 2017 and nearly flipped my raft... if you take that left line you definitely have to haul ass right as soon as you get passed the hole. Another guy hit the wall that year and flipped...and we had a guy on my last trip who started celebrating too early despite me warning him to pull hard away and he ended up flipping and broke two of his oars (one spare got crushed by the wall and one of his primary oars broke when he flipped). The hole is scary...but that left wall really gets people since it comes after the meat and people let their guard down.

Quote:
Bears Ears has the SPX 2200 with 1.5 piping, I swamped her a couple times in Grand Canyon and she bailed completely empty in a little more than a minute, I didn't time it, but it wasn't long. That being said, it wasn't all the pump, I have scuppers in both passenger compartments, and a overflow drain about 1/2 way up in my footwell, I think these are key in helping the water drain. From my observations, the front and rear passenger compartments drained before my footwell, but they drain INTO a sump in the footwell, so...
1.5" tubing to connect all the wells as well? I measured the holes in the footwells that currently connect everything and they are about an inch. I'd really rather not have to drill them out larger...but if I have to I guess I have to. I've talked with Mike Guryan a bit since has used both the 2200 and 4000 (one in the thing and one in the child...respectively) and says he has no regrets going with the bigger one and that it, fairly obviously, drains much faster then the 2200.

I've thought about putting scuppers in, but getting those right is hard and at the end of the day I'd rather just bilge it out. There are holes to drain the seats though...so those should help reduce water in the boat a bit quicker.

I've seen people say that you would probably get away with just drilling a big hole in the bottom of the boat with a scupper to minimize water getting back in...but that makes me nervous for sure.

Quote:
My friend Mike Guryan that built the only other copy of the "Bears Ears" class of boat (Wild Child) used the 4000, with 2 inch piping, and said it drained just fine, but you should see the battery he has to carry. I can't remember if he said he had to "top it up" or not. I had toyed with the idea of changing it out to the 4000, it wouldn't be hard, but I'm a weight nazi, and the group 24 (IIRC) battery it needs, (think car battery) is what caused me to keep what I have, which like I said, works fine.
I'd like to keep weight low too...but I kind of wonder if you really need that big a battery. He said he only charged it a few times during the trip, but mostly since it was an AGM battery and he didn't want to burn it out by letting it draw down too low. He didn't have a monitor on it, so he just topped it off every once in a while. He said he was the trips charging station too...so it got multiple uses.

I think my bottle neck at the moment will be tubing size. Mike made a good point when he said just try the 2200 and if it feels like its no up to the task upgrade. I've actually been thinking about using Nissan Leaf lithium cells for this. They are 7.6 volts each and easy to put in series to up the voltage to 14volts.

Quote:
My boat holds a lot more water than yours, If it were me, I'd stay with the 2200.



The captain's footwell is the place for it to be, sitting in it's sump, easy to run the piping against the bulkheads, and should the pump become inundated with silt, you can wiggle it with your foot and get it pumping again. Look on the FB Whitewater Dories page, he's got some photos of his install, he did a super sweet job, actually the nicest I've seen.
I'm definitely modeling my system after the one Mike put together. I'm still debating about check valves and a few other things...but I do like having direct access to the pump.

Quote:
Bears Ears has been down GC 3 times so far, 2 each 14 day trips to Diamond, and one 28 day to Pearce. The small battery lasted on the 14 day trips, but my power switch failed one night on the 28 day trip, let the pump suck the battery dry, good thing I had a spare battery, but no spare switch, tied the wires together in auto mode with a pair of hemostats, worked fine.



I carried a 10W solar charger which recharged the dead battery in about 3 days, one day was a layover, and I put the panel out at the end of the other 2 days. I now carry spare switches, a spare pump, and a 50W flexible solar panel in addition to the spare battery, which I primarily use for charging go pro batteries.
You never actually said what capacity battery you use. Mike said his was a 55ah AGM that looks like its for a wheelchair or similar.

Quote:
One thing I did note, when I bought the replacement pump, it said not to install a check valve. Bears Ears came with a check valve in the outlet, Mike G didn't put one in on his build, so I'm taking mine out this trip and will see if it increases the output without flooding my footwell and cycling the pump all the time.



My outlet tube, like Mike's is as high up the side as you can get it, so I'm thinking the check valve is redundant. I'm hoping so anyway.
Wesley already has an outlet tube and it is basically just bellow the high point of the decks. Not sure you could get it any higher. At any rate...I don't think I want to get into the project of moving it higher if it can...so it'll have to work. I guess the check valve mostly depends on whether water can get back through the pump. If it does, I feel like that should be a relatively minimal amount when the pump doesn't need to be running.

Quote:
And as an aside, you mention running solo. I'd do this in my little 14 foot Canonita Dory Ashkii, but Bears Ears is another matter entirely. I loaded up her hatches with water jugs to simulate a moderate load, and took her to the local lake, after a LOT of trying I got her flipped over, and was unable to flip her back, a "Z" drag off my trailer at the ramp and 2 anchors out into the lake did the trick, but on the river I need at least one more person to get her flipped back over, something to think about.
To be clear...when I said solo I meant in the boat by myself with other people in boats with me...not completely solo.

I haven't even gotten it on the water yet...but I feel like it would be good to have any idea of what it will take to reflip it. I'm not typically one to hold back and take the conservative line... I usually have to warn people that I usually aim for the meat and I don't plan on changing that with a Dory. I do plan on having at least one passenger with me on most trips in this boat...but having the option to go Solo and not have to worry about bailing will be nice.

Quote:
Hope this helps
It certainly does... I like hearing different perspectives on stuff.

After a month of thinking about it and hearing from people with their experience...I ordered a 2200 earlier. I think between a combo of pumping/bucket bailing and the bilge system... that should be plenty. The rear passenger well will be filled with a large cooler...so the main worry is the front passenger well.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #139
 
Salida, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Mayhem View Post
1.5" tubing to connect all the wells as well? I measured the holes in the footwells that currently connect everything and they are about an inch. I'd really rather not have to drill them out larger...but if I have to I guess I have to. I've talked with Mike Guryan a bit since has used both the 2200 and 4000 (one in the thing and one in the child...respectively) and says he has no regrets going with the bigger one and that it, fairly obviously, drains much faster then the 2200.

I've seen people say that you would probably get away with just drilling a big hole in the bottom of the boat with a scupper to minimize water getting back in...but that makes me nervous for sure.

He said he was the trips charging station too...so it got multiple uses.

You never actually said what capacity battery you use. Mike said his was a 55ah AGM that looks like its for a wheelchair or similar.

To be clear...when I said solo I meant in the boat by myself with other people in boats with me...not completely solo.

The whole thing is plumbed in 1.5: PVC connected with Fernco couplings.



This is the battery that I use, 12AH
https://amzn.to/3aNX03t


As I'm the charging station for this trip as well, I upgraded to a 50W flexible solar panel and this battery,

https://amzn.to/2RyRASs


My first boat had a raised footwell with 2 two inch pipes thru the floor to the river, was better than nothing but the passenger compartments did not bail, only scuppers. My scuppers on Bears ears are just below the level of the seats.



As to running solo, getting a flipped boat over ASAP is key, specially if you flip in Lava, you gotta get it over before Son of Lava so it doesn't hit the wall upside down, that would be bad.. I'd strongly recommend you take Wesley to a lake and flip it, Dories don't flip like a raft at all.



The float bag idea is novel, and seems like a workable thing, as does the toolbox idea, however I have more volume in my hatches than I can carry weight, and I certainly don't need more weight !! As I said before, it drains fast enough for me, and she's a big girl.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #140
 
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Kalispell, Montana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Mayhem View Post
The previous owner of Wesley modified the rear passenger well to hold a 140qt cooler. I'm a little worried about it being too heavy but I'll just have to make sure I don't go crazy with packing it. The PO said he really felt like the cooler displaced a lot of water and that he didn't have to bail nearly as much with that modification.

If you still have the same cooler, run with it. If it only has cold food, seems you'd then want to put your beer/water in the front cross hatch to equalize the weight. It would push your weight out toward the ends..and turn slower, but still balance the same as if all the weight were under your butt or in the side hatches.


Quote:
I do like your idea of a custom fit dry box. With that much dry cargo space...there is the same worry of weight that far back in the boat...but again...you'd just have to load the dry box accordingly. I know the two main cross hatches on my boat sure seem vast and cavernous...but I imagine they'll fill up faster then I think and having that extra dry storage.

Like you said, dry bags, Paco pads, etc.

It would be kind of sweet as a wannigan/kitchen box, too...except that would definitely get packed heavy.


Quote:
If you weren't worried about cargo space... it would be kinda cool to get a custom made float bag to do something similar. All of the benefit of way less water in the boat and only minimal weight to do it.

Well, I can weld PVC fabric and also have heat-sealable urethane that I use for making custom kayak float bags, so that's not out of the question. Hardest part would be keeping it down in the hole..as water gets in, that will want to float. It will be hard enough to keep a buoyant drybox submerged---I'll likely have to through-bolt the hull!


Quote:
I've thought about putting scuppers in, but getting those right is hard and at the end of the day I'd rather just bilge it out. There are holes to drain the seats though...so those should help reduce water in the boat a bit quicker.

I installed my boatman's footwell scupper about 8" above the floor. It was awash with 4 people in the boat and overnight gear.


I've only had my boat out once, but at least I now have a "scum line". I had been hoping to put my passenger scuppers in below the seats, but will put them in/under the front edge of the seats with a cross-drain tube like several others have. Guess I need to get started, the season is approaching!



Quote:
I think my bottle neck at the moment will be tubing size. Mike made a good point when he said just try the 2200 and if it feels like its no up to the task upgrade. I've actually been thinking about using Nissan Leaf lithium cells for this. They are 7.6 volts each and easy to put in series to up the voltage to 14volts.
Seems that you'll spend about $2/aH for batteries. The 35ah wheelchair batteries seem reasonably priced for their size. Lithiums are crazy expensive (but awesome for power density) unless you can get a deal on the Leaf cells.

Quote:
I'm definitely modeling my system after the one Mike put together. I'm still debating about check valves and a few other things...but I do like having direct access to the pump.

Marshall has me rethinking not having a pump in mine. I'll suffer through this summer and decide afterward.


Quote:
I haven't even gotten it on the water yet...but I feel like it would be good to have any idea of what it will take to reflip it. I'm not typically one to hold back and take the conservative line... I usually have to warn people that I usually aim for the meat and I don't plan on changing that with a Dory. I do plan on having at least one passenger with me on most trips in this boat...but having the option to go Solo and not have to worry about bailing will be nice.
I'm not keen on having to repair my boat...but I also like to hit the meat and want to do cool tailstands!!

Quote:
It certainly does... I like hearing different perspectives on stuff.

Likewise, you're asking good questions that I hadn't thought of.


Quote:
After a month of thinking about it and hearing from people with their experience...I ordered a 2200 earlier. I think between a combo of pumping/bucket bailing and the bilge system... that should be plenty. The rear passenger well will be filled with a large cooler...so the main worry is the front passenger well.

And the front passenger well is probably the spot to cause you the least concern, especially with one passenger and a bucket!


I'm also contemplating making my front footwell smaller...my girls were sitting up on the decks most of our trip (on Class 0/1 water) and I imagine people will dig in for hitting the meat....so it would seem that turning the outer thirds of the passenger footwell into more seating/storage would also give you more buoyancy and less to bail.


I'm going to meet up with an OARS dory guide for beers later this week, I'll ask him!
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