River Runners Shuttle - Page 2 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #11
 
Salida, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1983
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 319
3000 divided by 350 is 9 shuttles a day, 7 days a week, 350 days a year. Seems a tad steep for such a small company.. Surely grossing ~ 600K$ (using your 3000 number) a year they could afford insurance to protect their clientele...

Not saying they haven't changed over the years, They left us twice, and the third time they really shafted us, found out they were uninsured, and I haven't used them since so I have no RECENT first hand experience to go on.
Thankfully there has always been better (and in many cases less expensive) options for me.

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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #12
 
bighorn1478@msn.com's Avatar
 
lafayette or Grand Lake, CO., Colorado
Paddling Since: 1961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNichols View Post
3000 divided by 350 is 9 shuttles a day, 7 days a week, 350 days a year. Seems a tad steep for such a small company.. Surely grossing ~ 600K$ (using your 3000 number) a year they could afford insurance to protect their clientele...

High use season for Deso is 90 days at 6 trips per day, max 25 people per trip would equal 13500 people at 4 per car average equals 3500 vehicles. Low use would realalisticly be 200 days, two trips per day, 25 per trip equals 10000 people divided by four per car equals 500 vehicles. Dinosaur and Yampa have 300 permits during the high use season, 25 people per permit equals 7500 people divided by 4 per vehicle equals 1500 vehicles . Without even considering the low use season fo Dino or Yampa they could in a perfect world shuttle 5,500 vehicles. Melanie told me they shuttle more than 3000 vehicles a year whch seems very likly to be true since they do most of all the shuttles. I know that not all trips will be 25 people and that not everyone will use them, but not all vehicles will have 4 people, some less and a few maybe with more. My low use August 27 launch they shuttled 5 vehicles for us alone and the parking lot had about 8 more in it.
I always thought that no shuttle companies or valet parking lots had insurance, but that your car owners insurance was responsible to pay for any damages and then to collect from whomever was at fault. Some day I'll talk to my insurance agent and find out for sure unless there is one reading MTN Buzz and can answer that?
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #13
 
Electric-Mayhem's Avatar
 
Lakewood, Colorado
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They almost certainly have liability insurance for themselves and their drivers. I imagine it would be quite difficult and expensive to get insurance to cover damages their drivers do to cars though. It would likely take the lions share of their shuttle fee alone and would drive costs up to levels that would lose them business. If it was easy and cheap, I'm sure they would have it. Insurance companies aren't big fans of unknown variables that any given customers car provides and charge accordingly for it.

I'd be interested to hear how ones personal auto insurance would deal with a shuttle company crashing a car as well. I know towing insurance like AAA excludes a person not on the policy from being able to tow a customers car...but not sure about liability and collision/comprehensive insurance.

I've never used the Idaho River Runners shuttle service (I've had good luck with Central Idaho River Shuttles though). I think this thread started about them but migrated to River Runners Transport in Vernal and like everyone else I've had really good luck with them too. I've also used the Grand Canyon River Runners a couple times and they always a did an adequate job (the driver did leave a cup and some wrappers in my truck once though).
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #14
 
Salida, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1983
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
High use season for Deso is 90 days at 6 trips per day, max 25 people per trip would equal 13500 people at 4 per car average equals 3500 vehicles.
You said shuttles, what I took to be as RRT claims " a line of vehicles that stay together from put in to take out", now you're arguing PEOPLE to justify capacity. I can tell you from years as both a River Ranger, and sitting on boards that manage rivers, that a permit is rarely at full carrying capacity. I've been on something like 30+ deso trips in my 40 years of boating, and never did we have more than 8 on a trip, generally 2 to 3 vehicles to cut shuttle costs. Stating every trip is at full capacity, 6 trips x 25 x 90 is hardly an accurate way to justify the amount of cars on a shuttle. Just sayin



I read your original post to mean that there were 3000 SHUTTLES, lines of cars from put in to take out, as shuttles was the word you used. Sorry.



Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I always thought that no shuttle companies or valet parking lots had insurance, but that your car owners insurance was responsible to pay for any damages and then to collect from whomever was at fault.

Reputable shuttle companies carry a general liability insurance policy, to protect them (and you) in the event things happen, and when you involve folks with zero training driving unfamiliar vehicles with trailers and all manner of accoutrements, in varying stages of repair down a sharp shale road, something is bound to happen sooner or later.

When they literally destroyed my trailer by bending both the tongue and axle, caved in the roof of a brand new Toyota T-100 and tore the clutch out of a F-150 (granted not hard to do) I called them and they told me and I quote " Our insurance is your insurance", and both the ford and myself having only liability insurance, our only recourse was to file a court suit to recover what we considered blatant damages, I contacted an attorney who related that it would be upwards of 20K$ to try the suit, as the business was located in UT and the damage occurred in CO on LoDore.



It didn't make sense to spend 20K$ to recover what might have been $3500.00. When I called their office inquiring about their insurance status a couple years ago, I got the same answer, our insurance is YOUR insurance. Liability policies do not cover YOU, they cover the other guy. Don't even insinuate that I should have to buy insurance to protect myself from a shuttle company.



The deck is stacked against you right from the git go, as the only person that wins in litigation is the @#$%^& attorneys...


Again, Just sayin. Glad you all had good experiences with them, use them again if you want to, is your call.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #15
 
Salida, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1983
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Mayhem View Post
They almost certainly have liability insurance for themselves and their drivers. I imagine it would be quite difficult and expensive to get insurance to cover damages their drivers do to cars though. It would likely take the lions share of their shuttle fee alone and would drive costs up to levels that would lose them business. If it was easy and cheap, I'm sure they would have it. Insurance companies aren't big fans of unknown variables that any given customers car provides and charge accordingly for it.

I'd be interested to hear how ones personal auto insurance would deal with a shuttle company crashing a car as well. I know towing insurance like AAA excludes a person not on the policy from being able to tow a customers car...but not sure about liability and collision/comprehensive insurance.

They may or may not, if they did, the insurance would protect them from litigation from a shuttle customer. It was stated to me by RRT that they were uninsured. Insurance isn't cheap, I'll agree, but it's the cost of doing business for everyone else, one would think RRT would have what they don't. Oh yeah, cuts into profits...

IF I had Comprehensive / Collision insurance it MIGHT have covered the damage to my vehicle (after the deductible was paid) , but I didn't. Liability according to my insurance agent at the time, protects you from litigation for damage you cause to another, but does not recover anything for you to protect you from damage caused by others, that's why THEY (RRT) would carry insurance.



As I've stated before, glad you had a good experience with them, but I didn't, and it's left a very sour taste in my mouth even after all these years.



What I might mention is, I'm not posting here to slam RRT, (and yes Zach, I know you interpret it that way ala AIRE), their track record has improved over the past years apparently, for one they drive a couple hundred miles out of their way on Deso so they won't have to deal with the wrinkle road, which I'm sure cuts the amount of damage inflicted by driving too fast on that miserable sucker, most folks I run into don't even think about asking these questions, assuming that just because someone is advertising a business means it's a legitimate upstanding insured business that has all the safeguards in place to protect all parties when the inevitable happens. There are many "Fly by night" operators out there in all manner of businesses, not just river shuttles, and one should be informed before making decisions that COULD put them between a rock and a hard place. Now I always ask the hard questions before making a decision.



Not to mention that their drivers are all likely "contract labor" which not only relieves the employer from any workman's comp insurance needs, but "sorta" indemnifies the company owner from actions of the "contractor", and shifts the liability to them instead of the employer. THAT is pretty standard practice in the river shuttle industry..
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #16
Never enough free time
 
Red Lodge, Montana
Paddling Since: 1998
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 282
Regarding the insurance that the owner has on their vehicle and how that translates to damage caused when a shuttle company is driving, it varies by state and policy.

I called my agent (State Farm) and they told me that my policy is written to the state I live in, Montana, and that Montana is a "Permissive Use" state. This means that any licensed driver to whom I give permission to drive my vehicle is covered as if it were me driving, regardless of what state they were driving in.

I recall asking a similar question when I was much younger and living in another state, and using an insurance company that spends a lot of money on television ads, and was told that only the driver(s) expressly listed on the policy would be covered.

Moral of the story, call your agent, ask a very specific question, and make your decision from there.
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