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Old 01-31-2019   #1
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Question on PVC Groover diameter

I'm leading a Boy Scout Venture Crew on an 11 self support kayak trip down Labyrinth and Stillwater Canyons this summer.
Our plan is for everyone to make their own PVC groover to store their wag bags in. The PVC groovers would be similar to what yaktube makes and what can be found on campingbykayak.com.
I'd like to get advice from y'all who have I'm leading a Boy Scout Venture Crew on an 11 self support kayak trip down Labyrinth and Stillwater Canyons this summer.
Our plan is for everyone to make their own PVC groover to store their wag bags in. The PVC groovers would be similar to what yaktube makes and what can be found on kayakcamping.com.
I'd like to get advice from y'all who have experience using PVC groovers on extended self support kayak trips. What diameter of PVC pipe and how long should the pipe be to store up to a 6 day's worth of used wag bags?
We will be resupplying at Mineral Bottom on day 5 of the trip and sending out our garbage and wag bags so we don't need something to store 11 day's worth of wag bags.

Any advice from you all is appreciated.



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sing PVC groovers on extended self support kayak trips. What diameter of PVC pipe and how long should the pipe be to store up to a 6 day's worth of used wag bags?
We will be resupplying at Mineral Bottom on day 5 of the trip and sending out our garbage and wag bags so we don't need something to store 11 day's worth of wag bags.

Any advice from you all is appreciated.



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Old 01-31-2019   #2
 
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Salt Lake City, Utah
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I made a PVC groover for exactly this purpose. Mine is made out of 4" pipe and I'd guess it's about 18-24" long. I could measure later. It was barely large enough for me for a 4 night trip. A loaded wag bag does not compact down very well at all and the narrow tube makes it difficult to pack in. The whole setup just sucked, IMO. I'm not sure what size you'd need to make that work for a bigger load, but I would personally consider some other options. Maybe some 5 gallon buckets with gamma lids that are shared by the group. Then tie them down on the back of a kayak. If anyone will be in an inflatable, that would be a particularly good place to store them. I'm sure you can make the PVC work, but I just wasn't a fan of having to smash shit in there.
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Old 01-31-2019   #3
 
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Prolly depends on the age of the boy scouts but for adults 4" is the standard and the “rule of thumb” is 40 cubic inches per day. Think that is roughly 2" of length per day - multiple posts and videos on it.

Thought that was also a NPS requirement but haven't found that in the grand regs I am reading yet.
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Old 01-31-2019   #4
 
White Mountains, Arizona
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I just built mine today but have been researching for a while. Here are the high points:


1. Google has an area of a cylinder calculator.
2. NPS regs for the Grand indicate 40-cubic-inches/day.
3. Some forum posts indicate that in the real world we use about half of that.
4. I've also seen estimates of 2" per day using 4" pipe.
5. There are different wall thicknesses for PVC pipes and fittings. The nominal size is based on the inside diameter but the pipes are sized to the outside so that fittings are interchangeable between pipes with different wall thickness. Some fittings are much heavier than others!



For the length of your trip and since price is presumably important, I'd use 4" DWV PVC pipe and fittings since they are fairly thin-walled, readily available and cheap. By my calcs, using 40-cubic-inches/day (since the poo will be in wag bags), that's 3-inches/day.


I built mine 17-inches long with 6-inch SDR-64 pipe and SDR-35 fittings. That should handle 14-days and I'm happy with the size/weight.


Let me know if you think of an ingenious groover wrench! Good luck!
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Old 01-31-2019   #5
 
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No taller than comfortable height for your scouts to sit on and big enough in diameter to hold a roll of TP. Should probably fit inside the kayak, between legs? I do not kayak so I'm not sure of storage space. Just asking, do you have to use wag bags or would something less bulky work?
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Old 01-31-2019   #6
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
No taller than comfortable height for your scouts to sit on and big enough in diameter to hold a roll of TP. Should probably fit inside the kayak, between legs? I do not kayak so I'm not sure of storage space. Just asking, do you have to use wag bags or would something less bulky work?
No using the tube during the deed, only storage, wag bags for use then packed in tube. Agree with bcpnick that it’s not fun, but it works and have not really “liked” any groover setup but some are better than others. A foam cutout w/ string helps separate and pack down the used from new grooved supplies. Usually stored in front or rear pillar when kayaking, guessing just rigged and strapped for duckies.
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Old 01-31-2019   #7
 
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I just measured mine. It's 17" long, not counting the caps. It was a lot of work fitting 4 wag bags in there. They take up a lot more space than poop alone. I'd plan on at least 5" per deuce if it's in a wag bag.
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Old 01-31-2019   #8
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayakfreakus View Post
No using the tube during the deed, only storage, wag bags for use then packed in tube. Agree with bcpnick that it’s not fun, but it works and have not really “liked” any groover setup but some are better than others. A foam cutout w/ string helps separate and pack down the used from new grooved supplies. Usually stored in front or rear pillar when kayaking, guessing just rigged and strapped for duckies.

I just cannot wrap my brain around how to hover over a wag bag and make a accurate deposit. That is probably why I never started kayaking. I need an large target. Learned something new today. Tube is only for storage, not for deposit.
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Old 01-31-2019   #9
 
Salida, Colorado
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11 people right? 5 nights means 55 uses and 11 means 121. Wag bags are incredibly inefficient for your trip. It sounds like they double the volume of the actual waste. How many canoes for 11 people? 5, 6, 7? You have a little room to work with.

I suggest it would be much more efficient overall to just bring a group toilet. I think the coyote is good for about 50 uses, and you may just be able to pull that off with one unit for both above and below your resupply. You can sacrifice a rocket box as a back up in case you run out of room at the end.

Even more importantly, make sure there is a convenient way for everyone to wash hands after toilet use and before all meals. It is worth the effort and space to have a bucket setup for the group. Hand sanitizer doesn't cut it, use soap and water and having a small bottle of bleach along will serve you well.
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Old 02-01-2019   #10
 
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I agree with the posts above--while it sounds like a great project for your boy scouts, it's also a project that likely sees only a single use.

(11) 4" groover pipes gets a bit spendy in terms of PVC fittings.
6" fittings are REALLY expensive, but 6" pipe also has over 2x the capacity per inch.

You might be better off to show your scouts more typical ethical group river camping techniques.
Pool your resources and buy a Coyote, or do a group project and build 3-4 6" pipe groovers. Maybe make a seat and poop directly in the pipe? Split into groups. A couple groups build 6" groovers, another group builds a bucket handwash station, another group assembles the dishwashing system, another group could build some river tables, another build a kitchen box...each group can give a presentation to the others on hygiene and the reason all these things are necessary.


Another option might be a rocket box + trash compactor bags + WAG bags.
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