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Old 04-29-2020   #61
 
Boise, ID
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Originally Posted by noahfecks View Post
So how does my right to go out and live my life infringe on your right to stay at home and hide in the closet? To take your argument to a logical conclusion, exercising the right to assemble does not infringe on your right to shelter in place. If you are sheltering in place you should be safe regardless of what I do as long as I don't come into your house.


The converse is that your demand that I stay home to protect you from an irrational fear very much infringes on the rights of others.



Liberty is the right to make the wrong choice for yourself.
What is your definition of irrational fear? Not trying to get into a Covid debate. When I hear someone say that phrase, I feel like someone is saying someone else shouldn’t be afraid. Fear is an emotion someone feels. Like love, anger, jealously, hate, etc. Why should one person get to tell another person how they should feel?

I’m guessing we’re all paddlers here. Have you ever sat at the top of some gnarly rapid scouting with your buddy and your buddy says they’re walking it that day even though you’ve ran that rapid with that buddy at that flow before? I’m sure a few of us have been either party in that situation more than once. Did either one say that is irrational? If so, I’m not boating with you.

Please don’t make that analogy about Covid and if one person walks how it would impact the right of someone to fire up the rapid. My point is these are tough conversations right now and our society is in it together. It may be something or it may be nothing. We’re going nowhere if some people are feeling a certain way and those that don’t feel that way are discarding the other side’s emotions as irrational, stupid, idiotic, liberal, conservative whatever. Remember that right now people are afraid, desperate, or angry or all of them for a lot of different reasons. A lot of people are making decisions based on those emotions and that isn’t always a good scenario. Maybe some compassion and empathy from both camps may do us all a lot of good.

Sorry if folks have to wait a bit to get their boating on. Funny thing, I know a lot of people out boating right now that are too busy boating and maybe a little too crafty to be posting about boating on the internet.

I’ll go back to an earlier post. If your hobbies require discretion, be discreet about them. If you want to go boating, go. I’d prefer not to hear about it.

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Old 04-29-2020   #62
 
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Western Slope, CO, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahfecks View Post
So how does my right to go out and live my life infringe on your right to stay at home and hide in the closet? To take your argument to a logical conclusion, exercising the right to assemble does not infringe on your right to shelter in place. If you are sheltering in place you should be safe regardless of what I do as long as I don't come into your house.


The converse is that your demand that I stay home to protect you from an irrational fear very much infringes on the rights of others.



Liberty is the right to make the wrong choice for yourself.



Obviously you haven't had any experience watching someone die. Or worse, that it happened due to your actions.
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Old 04-29-2020   #63
 
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Ute City, Colorado
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Ok, you leave your house on the front range and decide to drive up to the mountains to the town where I live. On the way you stop and get gas at the gas station. The guy that used the pump before you was covid positive and coughs while fueling up and some active virus has landed on the pump you are now holding. You get back in your truck and continue on your way to my town. You pick your nose on the way. You get to my town and camp at the campground. The next day you go grocery shopping at my local grocery store. You are now unknowingly covid positive with no symptoms yet. You pass covid 19 on to the girl at the checkout counter. I pull into the store not long after you to do my weekly grocery shopping for me and my family which includes my mother who has health issues and is high risk. I go to the same checkout line you have just used. I pick up covid from you spreading it from not wanting to follow the guidelines and take it home to my family. I unknowingly pass it to my mother and she ends up dying from it. You tell me. Who's infringing on who's rights here?
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Old 04-30-2020   #64
 
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Lakewood, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quinoa View Post
Ok, you leave your house on the front range and decide to drive up to the mountains to the town where I live. On the way you stop and get gas at the gas station. The guy that used the pump before you was covid positive and coughs while fueling up and some active virus has landed on the pump you are now holding. You get back in your truck and continue on your way to my town. You pick your nose on the way. You get to my town and camp at the campground. The next day you go grocery shopping at my local grocery store. You are now unknowingly covid positive with no symptoms yet. You pass covid 19 on to the girl at the checkout counter. I pull into the store not long after you to do my weekly grocery shopping for me and my family which includes my mother who has health issues and is high risk. I go to the same checkout line you have just used. I pick up covid from you spreading it from not wanting to follow the guidelines and take it home to my family. I unknowingly pass it to my mother and she ends up dying from it. You tell me. Who's infringing on who's rights here?
Congratulations...you have a passing knowledge of how disease vectors work... just like everyone does. Thanks for refresher number 100 though.

Since we are all experts, seems to me you are just as likely if not more so to catch it from meat, veggies, and other foodstuffs found at that grocery store you reference.

You are all talking about this like you can keep yourself from getting COVID eventually... which is illogical and unlikely.

Sure...if you never leave your house and don't let anyone come visit, you have a reasonable chance of not contracting the virus. Step foot outside your house at any reasonable frequency and you will eventually contract the virus.

At some point, this lockdown is going to have to end and we are going to have to get back to a semblance of normal life, and that will mean a spike in people contracting the virus. Its inevitable... no amount of "Staying the fuck home" is going to change that. Two months ago it was "Just stay at home for a few weeks" and then it was "just stay at home till the end of April"... now its "just another month". Unpopular opinion perhaps...but maybe staying home isn't the best course of action.

People keep talking about "you are gonna pass it via touching a gas pump"... but if that were true...every county that borders I-70 would be having huge outbreaks. Eagle County had one...but its also a major international tourist hub (not sure about you...but I always bypass getting gas there due to the Gas Tax that cranks the prices up). Clear Creek, Garfield, Mesa, and the eastern counties are all comparable to much less traveled regions. Heck, Baca(Far SE corner of Colorado) county is in the middle of nowhere and no major roads go there...and its worse then many of the counties that border I70 and I25. I put this down to those who travel are partaking in good discipline and making sure they sanitize surfaces, wash their hands, don't open cough and give people the proper distance. So...travel at your leisure....but just stay disciplined. If you do that...it will keep you safe even from those who lack the discpline to do so.

Frankly...we met or exceeded every one of the goals that Governor Polis laid out in Late March/Early April for where we needed to be at this point to roll back into a more normal life. More beds with ventilators...flattening the curve... R0 closer to 1....better and more frequent testing. Its doing so well, that they basically decided it wasn't worth building more then 1/3 of temporary hospital rooms they indicated were needed a month ago.

This leads me to say... if we aren't ready now... when will we be ready for it? Another month? Six Months? Years?

I appreciate medical and science communicators laying it out clearly. Its their job to be frank and tell it like it is. Its also their job to lay it on thick and give a pretty horrible account of what COULD happen. So far, most estimates from a month ago seem to be overblown and the reality failed to match it. I expect, and even encourage, the scientists and medical professionals to keep at it...but I also acknowledge that they will continue to feel obligated to overstate the need for things in order to fully communicate the seriousness of the situation. I think most do indeed fully appreciate the seriousness of this...even those of us who are advocating for loosening restrictiosn significantly.

I have plenty to loose with two elderly parents in their late 70's, one of which takes anti-rejection drugs for his liver transplant. Funny thing though...he lives in Downtown Denver and has been going on daily walks around the park near his house. Lots of people there...very few wearing masks until the last week or so with the mandate for it. He seems to be doing great.

I'm not saying we need to go out and french kiss strangers or go around spitting in peoples faces... but I know I and many others are getting pretty sick of being treated like children. I feel like I am a fairly rational skeptic in most things and try not to have emotional reactions to stuff and base my beliefs on facts (harder today then ever...but I do my best). The skeptic in me, after reviewing well cited literature and looking at arguments from many sides, sees no evidence of a need for the level of lockdown we are under right now. Social Distancing and a higher level of vigilance with hygiene...sure. Having an arbitrary distance on where I am able to recreate or travel... I just don't see it being an issue as long as people are disciplined about it.

One could quote hypothetical anecdotes till one is blue in the face about how one or one's loved ones rights could be infringed. I came up with a few but decided to self edit and not post them... but suffice to say that there are situations where cooping people up and not allowing them the freedom to make their own choices could end in tragedy just as easily as someones elderly mother contracting COVID-19 from a traveling stranger would.
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Old 04-30-2020   #65
 
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Then there's the fact that no one NEEDS to go outside for anything anymore. All these shelter in place sissies can do so, they can have the serfs (now of which there are plenty) do their errands with no contact drop off and they can stay safe as long as they desire. Let the rest of us live our lives and pursue our happiness...A good friends Dad blew his head off the other day, lets put that one on Polis's tally.

“That the provisions of the Constitution of the United States, and of this State, apply, as well in time of war, as in time of peace; and any departure therefrom, under the plea of necessity, or any other plea, is subversive of good government, and tends to anarchy and despotism.”
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Old 04-30-2020   #66
 
Salida, Colorado
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From todays Mountain Mail newspaper by the Chair of the Chaffee County Commissioners...


Last week, Gov. Jared Polis previewed the “safer-at-home” COVID-19 strategy that began implementation on Monday. Essentially, there are four key assumptions to the epi-demiological modeling behind the strategy: Those 65 and older, or otherwise “vulnerable” to COVID-19, should maintain previous levels of social distancing (75-80 per-cent); the general population is able to ease social distancing to 60-65 percent; all people must wear masks or cloth face coverings in any public setting or workplace when oth-ers are nearby; and we must increase case identification and isolation statewide (e.g., testing and contact tracing).The governor also explained that the safer-at-home program would not prevent all illness and deaths. Rather, the objective is to keep the demand for medical attention and treatment within the capacity of our medi-cal system. According to the modeling, this can only be achieved by implementing all four elements of the program simultaneously. For Chaffee County, an acknowledged weak point in the safer-at-home program is availability of reliable, timely testing and capacity to ensure isolation of positive cases. Our testing capability increased significantly late last week with several major shipments of testing materials. County agencies, Heart of the Rockies Regional Medical Center and private efforts continue to locate and acquire all additional testing capacity available.The other challenge to success of the safer-at-home modeling is full participation and compliance. Simply, the model doesn’t work if it is not embraced by the entire population. All vulnerable populations need to stay home. Everyone else should stay home or reduce contact when-ever possible. And all people should wear a face covering when around people outside their household. The safer-at-home program promises some economic relief to our struggling workers and businesses. In exchange, we are asked to make simple modifications to our behavior. It is a reasonable proposition, but I can only rationally support it in the context of a strong commitment from our community to implement all elements of the modeling. Please make that extra effort to fully comply with the program.
Greg Felt is chairman of the Chaffee County Board of Commissioners.
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Old 04-30-2020   #67
 
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Loveland, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Mayhem View Post
Congratulations...you have a passing knowledge of how disease vectors work... just like everyone does. Thanks for refresher number 100 though.

Since we are all experts, seems to me you are just as likely if not more so to catch it from meat, veggies, and other foodstuffs found at that grocery store you reference.

You are all talking about this like you can keep yourself from getting COVID eventually... which is illogical and unlikely.

Sure...if you never leave your house and don't let anyone come visit, you have a reasonable chance of not contracting the virus. Step foot outside your house at any reasonable frequency and you will eventually contract the virus.

At some point, this lockdown is going to have to end and we are going to have to get back to a semblance of normal life, and that will mean a spike in people contracting the virus. Its inevitable... no amount of "Staying the fuck home" is going to change that. Two months ago it was "Just stay at home for a few weeks" and then it was "just stay at home till the end of April"... now its "just another month". Unpopular opinion perhaps...but maybe staying home isn't the best course of action.

People keep talking about "you are gonna pass it via touching a gas pump"... but if that were true...every county that borders I-70 would be having huge outbreaks. Eagle County had one...but its also a major international tourist hub (not sure about you...but I always bypass getting gas there due to the Gas Tax that cranks the prices up). Clear Creek, Garfield, Mesa, and the eastern counties are all comparable to much less traveled regions. Heck, Baca(Far SE corner of Colorado) county is in the middle of nowhere and no major roads go there...and its worse then many of the counties that border I70 and I25. I put this down to those who travel are partaking in good discipline and making sure they sanitize surfaces, wash their hands, don't open cough and give people the proper distance. So...travel at your leisure....but just stay disciplined. If you do that...it will keep you safe even from those who lack the discpline to do so.

Frankly...we met or exceeded every one of the goals that Governor Polis laid out in Late March/Early April for where we needed to be at this point to roll back into a more normal life. More beds with ventilators...flattening the curve... R0 closer to 1....better and more frequent testing. Its doing so well, that they basically decided it wasn't worth building more then 1/3 of temporary hospital rooms they indicated were needed a month ago.

This leads me to say... if we aren't ready now... when will we be ready for it? Another month? Six Months? Years?

I appreciate medical and science communicators laying it out clearly. Its their job to be frank and tell it like it is. Its also their job to lay it on thick and give a pretty horrible account of what COULD happen. So far, most estimates from a month ago seem to be overblown and the reality failed to match it. I expect, and even encourage, the scientists and medical professionals to keep at it...but I also acknowledge that they will continue to feel obligated to overstate the need for things in order to fully communicate the seriousness of the situation. I think most do indeed fully appreciate the seriousness of this...even those of us who are advocating for loosening restrictiosn significantly.

I have plenty to loose with two elderly parents in their late 70's, one of which takes anti-rejection drugs for his liver transplant. Funny thing though...he lives in Downtown Denver and has been going on daily walks around the park near his house. Lots of people there...very few wearing masks until the last week or so with the mandate for it. He seems to be doing great.

I'm not saying we need to go out and french kiss strangers or go around spitting in peoples faces... but I know I and many others are getting pretty sick of being treated like children. I feel like I am a fairly rational skeptic in most things and try not to have emotional reactions to stuff and base my beliefs on facts (harder today then ever...but I do my best). The skeptic in me, after reviewing well cited literature and looking at arguments from many sides, sees no evidence of a need for the level of lockdown we are under right now. Social Distancing and a higher level of vigilance with hygiene...sure. Having an arbitrary distance on where I am able to recreate or travel... I just don't see it being an issue as long as people are disciplined about it.

One could quote hypothetical anecdotes till one is blue in the face about how one or one's loved ones rights could be infringed. I came up with a few but decided to self edit and not post them... but suffice to say that there are situations where cooping people up and not allowing them the freedom to make their own choices could end in tragedy just as easily as someones elderly mother contracting COVID-19 from a traveling stranger would.

The virus is not transmissible via food (i.e. the digestive tract). Packaging maybe but not the meat itself.
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Old 04-30-2020   #68
 
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Golden, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Mayhem View Post
Frankly...we met or exceeded every one of the goals that Governor Polis laid out in Late March/Early April..............

I appreciate medical and science communicators laying it out clearly. Its their job to be frank and tell it like it is. Its also their job to lay it on thick and give a pretty horrible account of what COULD happen. So far, most estimates from a month ago seem to be overblown and the reality failed to match it.
EM, Do you want to know why the above statements of yours are true? It is because unselfish patriotic Americans answered the call of their government under the direction of scientist and did what they were asked. By doing so heroes mostly restricted this first phase of the pandemic to larger population/transportation centers. That is why they want us to not travel far and wide from the front range.

So EM, answer me this question. If your parents that you claim to care about die from COVID-19 during a potential rebound of this bug how will you feel? Feel lucky, other people had their parents die, loved ones die, friends die, .......................

From Guardians of the Galaxy, "I don't think anyone can be a complete dick". Sometimes I wonder if some people are.

EM, Please be patient and cooperative. We will soon be doing what you suggest concerning a new normal but people who are a lot smarter than us should be calling the shots. By your every admission which I have quoted above, they have done a miraculous job so far so leave it to them.

Signed,
GeoRon
(Pround recipient of the Sheeple and Asshole Awards bestowed by selfish people)
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Old 04-30-2020   #69
 
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Golden, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Mayhem View Post
Congratulations...you have a passing knowledge of how disease vectors work... just like everyone does. Thanks for refresher number 100 though.

People keep talking about "you are gonna pass it via touching a gas pump"... but if that were true...every county that borders I-70 would be having huge outbreaks. Eagle County had one...but its also a major international tourist hub.
Congratulations EM, you have failed test with regard to how disease vectors work. If you check the below link and consider the map for "cases", "deaths", "per capita", "new cases" that all hot spots are major gas/food/lodging zipcodes along interstates and US highways.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rus-cases.html

What you should be saying is why it is not worse in rural Colorado. Which is that the warning did go out to keep away from where people from the front range frequent and to wash your hands of them as much as possible. Unfortunately, the locals there are the ones who have to tend to the gas stations and restrooms, rest stops, camp grounds and lodges where front range stumps visit. And when they close the restrooms where does little Donnie or Daddy or Mommy relieve themselves; behind the restroom for locals to have to clean up. Just saying that there will be a lot of filth to deal with going forward.

They don't want you there. They are not ready for you there. And they don't want to have to deal with the consequences of people not caring and causing filth that they will eventually have to deal with.

(PS. The distribution of cases on the maps is largely due to the concentration of population along major highways which is also where regional hospitals are concerning "deaths". Epidemiologist understand such things.)
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Old 04-30-2020   #70
 
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Golden, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Mayhem View Post
People keep talking about "you are gonna pass it via touching a gas pump"... but if that were true...every county that borders I-70 would be having huge outbreaks. ....... Heck, Baca(Far SE corner of Colorado) county is in the middle of nowhere and no major roads go there...and its worse then many of the counties that border I70 and I25.
EM, By the way, in terms of cases per capita, the counties that border I70, I25 and I76 did have relatively huge outbreaks until it was brought under better control. Look at the below maps and you will see exactly that the counties/zip codes immediately adjacent to these interstates have a higher outbreak than Denver/Jefferson County which is the closest large population center hot spot. The most valid interpretation of this distributed pattern of contagion is transportation associated elevated concentration of the virus(gas pumps, quicky marts, fast food, etc).

Please be thoughtful of your neighbors. You people in the mountains and along the interstates STFAH and do not bring your disease down here to us innocent people in the city.
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