Dinosaur Permit cancelations - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 03-07-2014   #1
 
Lakewood, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Dinosaur Permit cancelations

So we struck out big time on permits this year. Super bummed. I did find a friend via a friend that was going to cancel his Yampa permit. He was invited on another trip and could not do two trips this season. He called in and canceled his permit with the river office (personally canceled and spoke wit the river permit lady). We called in minutes after and asked to pick up the permit. She said there had been no cancelation for that date. Called in again today to see if perhaps it took a day or so to register the cancelation. Still no cancelation. Any thoughts on this? WTF!

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Old 03-07-2014   #2
 
cedar city, Utah
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Not to rag on you in particular but this definitely directed at the cheating that has been so blatant on the Buzz this season (haven't paid attention in the past):

First off, if you want to see what permits are available for Yampa or the Green you can go to the same website we all do to check daily. Its here:

Dinosaur National Monument Available Launch Dates

Most rivers release cancelled permits randomly for the very reason you are exhibiting right now. There is a reason permits are not transferable.

Is nobody else tired of people in our community rigging the systems in their favor? I mean we all are in the same boat here. It sucks for those of us who follow the rules to sit around and watch so many people openly and blatantly cheating. But to cheat with such impunity even within the community is too much for me. If we can't self regulate then we deserve every bit of regulation and PITA lottery system that has come our way.

Not directed to the OP is particular but at the problem in general. This one post is just the last straw for me. I just can't sit back anymore and listen to people cheat and then act like unique victims of some unfair system that exists for all of us. We all get skunked every now and again. In fact the system is such that most of us get skunked. Thats the way it works when the # of boaters outweighs the availability of the resource.

I don't expect people to change based upon my post but I just can't sit around in silence anymore while people openly cheat. It hurts our fellow boatmen when we allow this type of activity to go uncriticized. I am sure I will get lambasted and some folks will write this type of cheating off as a non-issue but we have to speak up at some point if we want the system to be as fair as possible for all of us and to reduce future increases in policy.

Phillip
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Old 03-07-2014   #3
 
Jackson, Wyoming
Join Date: May 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by restrac2000 View Post
Not to rag on you in particular but this definitely directed at the cheating that has been so blatant on the Buzz this season (haven't paid attention in the past): First off, if you want to see what permits are available for Yampa or the Green you can go to the same website we all do to check daily. Its here: Dinosaur National Monument Available Launch Dates Most rivers release cancelled permits randomly for the very reason you are exhibiting right now. There is a reason permits are not transferable. Is nobody else tired of people in our community rigging the systems in their favor? I mean we all are in the same boat here. It sucks for those of us who follow the rules to sit around and watch so many people openly and blatantly cheating. But to cheat with such impunity even within the community is too much for me. If we can't self regulate then we deserve every bit of regulation and PITA lottery system that has come our way. Not directed to the OP is particular but at the problem in general. This one post is just the last straw for me. I just can't sit back anymore and listen to people cheat and then act like unique victims of some unfair system that exists for all of us. We all get skunked every now and again. In fact the system is such that most of us get skunked. Thats the way it works when the # of boaters outweighs the availability of the resource. I don't expect people to change based upon my post but I just can't sit around in silence anymore while people openly cheat. It hurts our fellow boatmen when we allow this type of activity to go uncriticized. I am sure I will get lambasted and some folks will write this type of cheating off as a non-issue but we have to speak up at some point if we want the system to be as fair as possible for all of us and to reduce future increases in policy. Phillip
I tend to agree. The answer isn't trying to sneak a cancellation you know about- when you do get a permit, bring a good variety of friends (better yet, make some new friends by inviting outside your circle. Be a good trip leader, and be a great team member when on someone else's permit. This keeps the invites flowing when you have a bad permit year.
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Old 03-07-2014   #4
 
Fort Collins, CO, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
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It is unfortunate when people abuse these permitting systems at the expense of other boaters, but I don't agree that any cheating has occurred here. He said he was unable to pick up the permit, despite his efforts. He happened to be in an advantageous position, with knowledge that his friend would be giving up a permit that was won fairly. Had you been privy to this information, you too would have made an effort to claim it before anyone else. That is the nature of a call-in system. The fact that he was denied means the system works (for Dinosaur, anyway) and that the rangers there are doing their jobs. If he had been allowed to pick up the permit, and doing so was within the rules for that river, that's just plain old good luck for him to know someone who was giving one up.
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Old 03-07-2014   #5
 
cedar city, Utah
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Originally Posted by whitewaterjunkie View Post
Had you been privy to this information, you too would have made an effort to claim it before anyone else.
We can agree to disagree on most everything other than the above. I have had desired permits I needed to cancel and been privy to such information when I needed permits. Never gamed the system in the way I have critiqued despite the opportunity. Don't appreciate the unfounded accusation.

I will also say that the lack of desired results doesn't discount cheating in any situation I am aware of. I also have a hard time believing it was just and advantageous situation considering how the OP (and many others on the Buzz) posted this story. People seek out these opportunities. Its an active attempt at increasing the odds outside the basic lottery protocol and cancellation process. Knowing the minute someone calls to cancels (which the OP did) meets the criteria for the definition of cheating for me.

Phillip
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Old 03-07-2014   #6
 
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Win if you can lose if you must but always CHEAT!
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Old 03-07-2014   #7
 
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Denver, Colorado
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Nate knows...its the American way. Rules are made to be broken!
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Old 03-07-2014   #8
 
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Evergreen, Colorado
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Tough topic but I can see how a group would want to keep it in the family that's the way things are.
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Old 03-07-2014   #9
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Probably once a week someone posts on Mountain Buzz that they are cancelling a permit and hope another Buzzard can put it to good use.

Are all the people that see that post and call in the next day or go on-line cheaters?

Yesterday I got an email from a boating buddy that their were two May Dino cancellations and to be sure to call in at 8 am this morning. Does that make me a cheater?

Sorry but I don't see it that way. YMMV
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Old 03-08-2014   #10
 
cedar city, Utah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Probably once a week someone posts on Mountain Buzz that they are cancelling a permit and hope another Buzzard can put it to good use.

Are all the people that see that post and call in the next day or go on-line cheaters?

Yesterday I got an email from a boating buddy that their were two May Dino cancellations and to be sure to call in at 8 am this morning. Does that make me a cheater?

Sorry but I don't see it that way. YMMV
My understanding of cheating systems looks like this....

If an action and/or inside information gives you an unfair advantage over the vast majority of participants then it is cheating (you know, its like insider trading in wall street). So the people who post here about their cancellations are cheating and aiding buzzards in increasing their odds of winning unfairly.

On the other hand....any information that is available to all or most of the people using the system is fair game. So your second example, assuming you are referring to the freeyampa site's publication of available launches, is not cheating.

We have an immense ability to write off our actions and justify ourselves. Cheating seems pretty clear cut on these issues to me. Some folks are gonna be content with that as they see the benefits outweighing the negatives. Obviously we can't control anyone else's decisions but maybe folks openly critiquing those actions online might sway a few folks. At a minimum it makes it clear that this isn't some universally accepted behavior within the community.

Cheaters exist in every system but I believe we can reduce their impact to our community in this particular case.

Phillip
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