Camp Consultant App-Grand Canyon (was GC0000-0010) - Page 2 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #11
 
Klamath Falls, Oregon
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This table was not at all accurate for the camps we stayed at for our Dec 2017 trip.

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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #12
 
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Golden, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kfalls View Post
This table was not at all accurate for the camps we stayed at for our Dec 2017 trip.
I assume that you are referring to the Boatman's Almanac as "not at all accurate"? Comparing it to synthesized visualizations, I'd say that the Almanac is a very decent generalized reference. They used a complex gizmo that required precise setup and operation at each location. It wasn't designed for "drive by" measurements that would take hours to get the precision that is implied by the tables. I suspect there was a fair amount of guesstimates, good enough's and post facto interpolation. Under the circumstances, what they did was amazing.

It will be interesting to see how well the visualization tool turns out. Infidien has offered to do some ground truthing on his upcoming trip late this month. I have boated with him and consider him a highly qualified mariner and observer having spent years sailing his boat around the world with his wife and young daughter on board. Interactions with him have already concluded that I switch to another toolbox to calculate corrected GMT hourly locations along the solar paths. New times shift .5 hours toward sunrise relative to my old tool. The old tool had too much of a tendency to center noon at the 12 o'clock position.

I will admit to certain imprecision's. The greatest of which are where to start(the zero point) and the elevation of the coordinate at the zero point. I'm sure to suffer the criticism of "well, this thing is all screwed up! The sun is not hitting my tent!".

My zero point was determined using multiple sets of air photos as on the beach shore ward of the bow of tied up boats at what was(is) the primary tie up of a camp. My zero elevation was heavily weighted by GCMRR's river elevation, the digital elevation model and having been to most of the camps often more than once.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #13
 
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Golden, Colorado
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Originally Posted by jbolson View Post
I do think it is cool. Looking down the road (or river as it were) have you considered normalizing the results so you could indicate each camp as being morning + or - and the same for evening. Or perhaps those numbers would change too much seasonally? For example, if a camp had a morning +1 or maybe +2 you it seems you could more easily compare camps with such a rating system. Just a suggestion. Not that I don't like charts...
jbolson,
I slept on this idea(literally). This is a great idea I think achieved by sorting by date and generating a compressed table of all camps that can be quickly browsed for a given date. This would be a very doable way to do something Infidien and I have discussed, slider bar control of date to do neat things.

Perhaps my next project will be to generate tables of SR-SS using my ground truthed visualization tool. Database this SR-SS table. Then the user interface would be a list of all camps with adjacent columns for SR and SS and a slider bar for date. But this project requires me to get though the visualizations.

With regard to normalization, I think a derivative + or - value might be taking you away from what you really want to compare most, which is sunrise and sunset. A relative value based upon normalization would mean that you'd just have to back calculate what you really want know, hence unnecessary mental gymnastics.

However, considering the above SR-SS app adding two adjacent columns containing normalized relative values would be possible. Wow, then you could add a slider bar to control your normalization. Now that is diddling around with the numbers. Let's make it so.

I can do this in Visual Basic. Ideally it should be a smart phone app. Anyone out there good at such things as apps?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #14
 
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Golden, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kfalls View Post
This table was not at all accurate for the camps we stayed at for our Dec 2017 trip.
BTW, which camps? It might be possible to speculate factors contributing to the Boatman's Almanacs inaccuracies.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #15
 
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Golden, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoRon View Post
Infidien has offered to do some ground truthing on his upcoming trip late this month. I have boated with him and consider him a highly qualified mariner and observer having spent years sailing his boat around the world with his wife and young daughter on board. Interactions with him have already concluded that I switch to another toolbox to calculate corrected GMT hourly locations along the solar paths. New times shift .5 hours toward sunrise relative to my old tool. The old tool had too much of a tendency to center noon at the 12 o'clock position.
The tool Infidien recommended for sunrise sunset determination:
https://www.sunearthtools.com/dp/tools/pos_sun.php#top
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #16
 
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Golden, Colorado
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I just spent a bike ride mostly considering the practical value of jbolson's suggestion of normalization and how best to express normalizations' use in practice. (I only crashed and burned a few times.)

Let's consider a TL's possible desire to launch at 9am. Normalizing to 9am with appropriate processing will calculate plus or minus hours before or after 9am for all camps. Likewise, setting a normalized sunset time will allow the TL to compare plus or minus hours before his preferred sun below the horizon time.

Having slider controls for date, morning normalization and evening normalization and resulting adjacent columns of sunrise-sunset,morning plus-minus and evening plus-minus will provide more info than 99.9% of the boating population would ever care about. Let's do it for no other reason than to witness how many ways non-pocket-protector-types can say WTF?.

(And with a few more modifications to consider camp quality and size we can likely eliminate the need to have uppity TL's on a trip? )

Now I've got to go find a sponsor for this app, cha-ching! I'll split the million dollars with you jbolson. Who do I make the check out to?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #17
 
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While two numbers (mean and deviation) for each date would capture all the info, as you state. I'm curious if you can distill it down to one number, namely the average deviation. The question becomes how much does the deviation change with the day of the year. I'm sure there will be some variation, but you might find the variation is minor compared to the difference in average deviation between camps. If so, you got one number (or two, one for morn and one for night) for each camp.



If you are trying to decide between a few candidate camps, knowing if the camp gets late sun or early sun relative to your other candidate camps would be great info. On river time, the absolute time of day is unknown to most except the anal TL.


As for the millions, you can donate my share to the foundation to eliminate anal TLs. As to ID, you know me, we did the ditch together back in '91.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #18
 
Durango, Colorado
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Hi Ron, We once were on the same Westwater trip so long ago......great trip with you as the main descriptor of the upcoming rapids. Not a big deal, but my memory is your firepan keeping my folding shovel. Have enjoyed your thousand messages to MB. Have you tried Peak Finder to accomplish the Sun Rise and Sun Set data for a given location? Not only shows horizon profile but, also the Arc path of Sun and times of SR and SS. https://www.peakfinder.org/about/
I have a GC launch Feb 15 and will try this software for accuracy and usefulness.
Does Tahiti had the Green Flash?
Mike
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #19
 
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Golden, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rylerlab View Post
Hi Ron, We once were on the same Westwater trip so long ago......great trip with you as the main descriptor of the upcoming rapids. Not a big deal, but my memory is your firepan keeping my folding shovel. Have enjoyed your thousand messages to MB. Have you tried Peak Finder to accomplish the Sun Rise and Sun Set data for a given location? Not only shows horizon profile but, also the Arc path of Sun and times of SR and SS. https://www.peakfinder.org/about/
I have a GC launch Feb 15 and will try this software for accuracy and usefulness.
Does Tahiti had the Green Flash?
Mike
Busted, sorry about that. The things I find in that firepan bag each time it gets reopened are scary. Usually a butt ugly rusted firepan full of wet ash, mold and pure rust.

Next time we hook up I'll get that shovel, you'll have to pick it out from perhaps half a dozen? I'll even give you the firepan! I've switched to one of those aluminum things with mesh bottom.

Did we set up my propane sauna on that trip??

I'll check out peakfinder and thanks. I wonder if it has the resolution to do what is necessary in the Grand Canyon. I doubt it uses a high resolution digital elevation model since it says it can stand alone from an internet connect.

That, ah, Tahiti thing was joke.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #20
 
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Golden, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbolson View Post
While two numbers (mean and deviation) for each date would capture all the info, as you state. I'm curious if you can distill it down to one number, namely the average deviation. The question becomes how much does the deviation change with the day of the year. I'm sure there will be some variation, but you might find the variation is minor compared to the difference in average deviation between camps. If so, you got one number (or two, one for morn and one for night) for each camp.



If you are trying to decide between a few candidate camps, knowing if the camp gets late sun or early sun relative to your other candidate camps would be great info. On river time, the absolute time of day is unknown to most except the anal TL.


As for the millions, you can donate my share to the foundation to eliminate anal TLs. As to ID, you know me, we did the ditch together back in '91.

John, is that you? Hope all is well! (I hope you look better than your MB photo that pops up next to your posts.)
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