The Government shut down will suck green apples - Mountain Buzz
 

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Old 09-30-2013   #1
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The Government shut down will suck green apples

So I decided to take my own advice and move this debate to the Eddy, where it belongs. All the permit holders with 10/1 and later launch dates are going to be looking for answers and don't want to read the rantings of the radicals.

That said, let me take up where alanbol left off;

Quote:
From your post:
"In this round, however, the president and his aides maintain that when it comes to raising the government’s borrowing authority and meeting its debt obligations, there’s no bargaining. To conservatives wishing to undo the 3-year-old health care law in exchange for an increase in the nation’s credit, Obama on Friday said bluntly: “That’s not going to happen.”"

How does that differ from what I wrote?

BTW, there's a "clean" CR w/o all the Obamacare BS in it on Boehner's desk (passed by the Senate earlier today). He won't bring it to the floor because it would pass. Boehner and the GOTP would rather shut down the economy.
Exactly. Obama has said NO NEGOTIATION. The Senate kicks the C/R back to the house "as proposed"

No negotiation.

And for those who want to jump up and down and scream that the Publicans are holding the nation hostage, you are absolutely correct. They are.

And it isn't the first time politics has gotten wrapped up in budget and debt limit fights;

In 1953 during the Dwight Eisenhower administration, fiscal conservatives in Congress at times have used the debt limit as a way to force concessions by the executive branch on spending. Eisenhower, a Republican, had particular trouble with a Democrat, Sen. Harry F. Byrd of Virginia, over the debt ceiling because Byrd was skeptical of Eisenhower’s plans to build the national highway system.

In 1973, when Richard Nixon was president, Democrats in the Senate, including Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) and Sen. Walter Mondale (D-Minn.), sought to attach a campaign finance reform bill to the debt ceiling after the Watergate-era revelations about Nixon’s fundraising during the 1972 election. Their efforts were defeated by a filibuster, but it took days of debate and the lawmakers were criticized by commentators (and fellow lawmakers) for using “shotgun” tactics to try to hitch their pet cause to emergency must-pass legislation.

In 1982, Senate Majority Leader Howard Baker unleashed a free-for-all by allowing 1,400 nongermane amendments to the debt ceiling legislation, which resulted in five weeks of raucous debate that mostly focused on limiting federal court jurisdiction over school payer and busing. The debt limit only passed after lawmakers decided to strip all of the amendments from the bill.


One of the most striking examples of a president being forced to accept unrelated legislation on a debt-ceiling bill took place in 1980. The House and Senate repealed a central part of President Jimmy Carter’s energy policy — an oil import fee that was expected to raise the cost of gasoline by 10 cents a gallon. Carter vetoed the bill, even though the United States was close to default, and then the House and Senate overrode his veto by overwhelming numbers (335-34 in the House; 68-10 in the Senate).


Obama


And a Bloomberg survey showed that almost 2/3 of those surveyed feel budget cuts are a legitimate discussion for both new budgets and raising the debt limit.

Americans Reject by 61% Obama Demand for Clean Debt Vote - Bloomberg

What I see as different this time is the hard line positions BOTH SIDES are taking. In reality, neither side is much willing to negotiate.

If I had a Grand Permit launching on 10/1 it would take a bit more than an armed guard to keep me out.

Just saying.

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Old 10-01-2013   #2
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What the hell, I'll play...

First off, this false equivalence--both sides do it, neither will compromise--needs to stop. You said it yourself: "the Publicans are holding the nation hostage, you are absolutely correct." Holding the nation hostage is no way to govern, and it sure as hell isn't "conservative" in any meaningful sense of the word.

You don't negotiate with terrorists, economic or otherwise. Sets a bad precedent.

As for your historical precedents...
  • The 60 year old one sounds like Byrd's concern was over a massive spending program--the interstate highway system--so at least it was budget related. Apparently that failed, since we got the IHS, which was a great investment, IMHO.
  • The 40 year old one ends with "the lawmakers were criticized by commentators (and fellow lawmakers) for using “shotgun” tactics to try to hitch their pet cause to emergency must-pass legislation". And rightly so.
  • Baker's trying to hitch a social conservative wish list to the budget in '82 sounds the most like what we're seeing today. Once again, ill-conceived plan ends in failure.
  • Poor ol' Jimmy Carter provides the only example where a President gets rolled with these tactics, and a bipartisan Congress had to override a veto to do it. That aint happening this time.

Holding the economy hostage on your pet issue, which is exactly what the GOP is doing today, is not only destructive, it's a losing strategy. They will not overturn Obamacare. The exchanges opened today, even if the Grand Canyon didn't. All they're doing is playing to the nuts in their base, while everybody gets hurt to some degree.

So, how does this play out amongst the plebes? Same source, more recent, with more specific poll question:

Quote:
American voters oppose 72 - 22 percent Congress shutting down the federal government to block implementation of the Affordable Care Act, or Obamacare, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

Voters also oppose 64 - 27 percent blocking an increase in the nation's debt ceiling as a way to stop Obamacare, the independent Quinnipiac University poll finds.
Republicans should quit while they're behind. This does not end well for them.
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Old 10-01-2013   #3
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Yep my family's income was cut by more than half this morning. All because of those teabagger assholes.
I'm no fan of Obamacare either but for different reasons than they say.
The whole unrelated issues thing is like telling a kid "do your homework or you lose the ipod" The right is assuming that we are not capable of understanding the cost/benefits of Obamacare just like a kid is not capable of understanding the benefit of doing homework.
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Old 10-01-2013   #4
 
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I have yet to hear any good arguments for getting rid of the ACA, it sounds more and more like a witch hunt than reasonable discussion. I'll admit I do not truly understand it and how it affects me (I currently have insurance). But health care in this country in my opinion is a broken system, with the capability of absolutely financially crippling people's lives with just one incident. A buddy recently had an appendix burst, no insurance, and the hospital 'negotiated' with him to the tune of over $50K in a bill still due. So much for buying a house this year. Or next. But he is alive and grateful for it.

I for one want to at least see how the act pans out over the next few years. At least it is an attempt at reforming the system, still waiting to hear what the GOP would propose to improving it.

That 2 cents is all I got...
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Old 10-01-2013   #5
 
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How the repubs always end up taking all the blame is beyond me. Most polls show that the majority of Americans don't like certain parts of O-Care...which is a pretty clear sign it needs some work. Dems have refused to negotiate ANYTHING with regards to it.

The house sent over a bill that would have fully funded the gov't and defund O-care....shot down...no negotiation....no surprise. Round two...fully fund gov't but DELAY O-care for a year (you know, so certain things can be worked on)....shot down....no negotiation...why??? It was even discussed to delay the individual mandate (the most unpopular piece of the legislation)...yet the Senate said they wouldn't even accept that.

BOTH sides are at fault here...they're all a bunch of idiots if you ask me...but if I have to point the finger, it's squarely on Obama and Reid. The house tried to fund gov't, buy some time, and negotiate certain things the American public clearly doesn't understand and/or like, yet the Senate and our President were absolutely unwilling to negotiate.

And then all the nasty name calling from the left. Anarchists, Terrorists, Extortionists (Obama himself used this one)...just to name a few. Really??? Just for trying to negotiate what the majority of their constituents have asked them to do??

Sorry but Obama is a really shitty leader...TERRIBLE. I've learned one very important lesson while competing in team sports, business, LIFE....an effective leader will bring people together and find the most productive path. Where is the country today....further divided or closer together??? Terrible leader...even Bush (arguably the most hated president in recent history) was better at negotiating and LEADING than BO. Obama will negotiate with foreign countries (Syria, Russia, Iran)...but he won't negotiate with Republicans. Does that make any sense?

Here's a pretty interesting article I read today...it's about raising the debt ceiling...which is the next thing on the table.

Annotating Obama’s 2006 speech against boosting the debt limit - The Washington Post
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Old 10-01-2013   #6
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The reason Obamacare is a bullshit law is that it hands over millions of new customers to the very corporations that screwed up the system in the first place.
There needs to be a mandatory low cost public option. Sure it would suck. But you get what you pay for and you always have the option to get insured by another company.
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Old 10-02-2013   #7
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FOX News

FOX News calls it a "Slimdown" and not a "Shutdown". All we are doing is closing the things that aren't very inportant until next years main tourist season. Think of it as forced savings, for your own good.

House to try again to pass 3 emergency funding bills amid government slimdown | Fox News
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Old 10-02-2013   #8
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I'll be paddling and elk hunting in Yellowstone this weekend.
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Old 10-02-2013   #9
 
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All the house is trying to do is deflect some of the blame. Their bills will only open the Smithsonian, Statue of Liberty, and Yosemite. So much for the other 398 parks.

Look, what is so tough to understand that it is the bills that the congress has passed that they must fund. So since they have a chip on their shoulder over one bill, they are happily doing their best to tank the whole economy. Tell us how that is in our interests as a country?
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Old 10-02-2013   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don View Post
FOX News calls it a "Slimdown" and not a "Shutdown". All we are doing is closing the things that aren't very inportant until next years main tourist season. Think of it as forced savings, for your own good.

House to try again to pass 3 emergency funding bills amid government slimdown | Fox News
Slimdown??

Man you gotta love the spin doctors.

Slimdown.............HAH
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