Some stimulus Math. And you thought Ponzi schemes were illegal. - Mountain Buzz
 

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Old 02-11-2009   #1
 
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Some stimulus Math. And you thought Ponzi schemes were illegal.

Make your own decision.

Some basic math for fellow citizens

838 Billion dollars to stimilate (only one of many such sized bills going through in recent and coming months)
about 100 million workers
about 1/2 of them pay any significant taxes.
so 838,000,000,000 divided by 50,000,000 is almost $17000 per significant paying taxpayer

So your share for this one bill is about $17,000 if you make any significant money, but keep in mind you are not allowed to pay your share this year, it must be added to the national debt and is borrowed over a long period of time.

By the same math your share of the current debt is approximately $200,000 before this bill is pushed through and goes up on average $70 a day (every day of the week, including holidays). We are actually increasing the national debt by approx 12% per year, prior to all these stimulus packages.

So if the average significant paying taxpayer is not ready to pay off the equal of an extra $200,000 plus interest for our current debt plus $17,000 plus interest for the current bill plus another $70 each day plus interest then we will financially fail as Nation sooner or later. Now I thought Ponzi schemes were illegal? The numbers were not so drastically different when times were good, but the ponzi scheme was getting better fed at that time.

This would be something to contend with at 1/10 this rate. Say I am just wrong or folks could adjust my thinking by even an whole order of maginitude.

All taxes paid by entities other than citizens ultimately come from citizens through purchases too unless we become a net exporter, which we are not.

Not saying the bill is not the best solution, just food for thought.

If it makes sense to eat three good meals every day and you only have $1 to spend a day, does it matter that it makes sense to eat three good meals daily if you can only afford one per week.

What am I missing? The national debt was out of control and this bill will increase it by about 8%. This seems like a big deal. I dont think folks really think about what a billion dollars actually is.

Anybody out there have a few bucks I can borrow....interest free?

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Old 02-11-2009   #2
 
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They made it so you can buy a house without being able to pay it back. Do you really think they care about paying off the national debt. Obama wants to increase the debt and pass it on the the next in line. We need "new deal" type proposals that spend money to make money not spend money to move the economy.
spending doesn't fix the economy a plan to make money does.
good yakraft.
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Old 02-11-2009   #3
 
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Quote:
We need "new deal" type proposals that spend money to make money not spend money to move the economy.
spending doesn't fix the economy a plan to make money does.
You should take remedial English and remedial Economics.
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Old 02-11-2009   #4
 
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why because its a internet forum. and the new deal back in the great depression is what saved our asss. it was a program that made money after spending money. please riparian if you post at least have something to back your opinion. better idea post someting relevent to the discussion.
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Old 02-11-2009   #5
 
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Jesus H. Christ. The whole idea behind this spending/stimulus bill is to jumpstart the economy. The spending will result in money being made in the private sector and recirculated through the economy. Just like the New Deal and WWII spending did. John Maynard Keynes. Look him up.
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Old 02-11-2009   #6
 
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RIPARIAN just like the last stimulus congress passed that did absolutely nothing. the new deal made money not only spent money. thats why they called it the "new deal". roosevelt, legalization of alcohol,(makes money) not spends money. there was nothing in obamas that would drastically change the way of eceonomy except temporarily.
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Old 02-11-2009   #7
 
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I agree that "they" do not care about paying off the debt. Most readers of this likely don't care either.

Remember that the new deal did not fix the problem last time, going to Europe and Asia did. The new deals without revision are a good part of that debt.

Part of my point in bringing this up is that eventually this debt will catch up with us, eventually the ponzi scheme cannot be fed enough to make the issue stay secondary...and since this debt is currently insurmountable and increasing at an alarming rate (8% yesterday alone)... is not a change in the economic model in the mix.

I am not encouraging revolution (well), I am predicting it after this debt starts to really keep people away from their food and fuel. I love the free market, most of us do and benefit from it, but this stuff could kill our little few hundred year experiment (modern republic/psudo free market/USA).

As I hope there is more discussion in this thread, I want to point out something that was already argued to me in conversation this morning by someone I consider to typically be in the know and a justification I have heard before.

The convo centered around my bud (actually dad) stating that only one time in his lifetime was the national debt under control. I asked when that was, he stated it was in the Clinton years. I reminded him of the difference between national debt and yearly deficit. We had yearly surpluses during the Clinton years, though the debt was still sky high and growing. Very big difference. Just wanted to make sure folks had that mindset in any discussion. It was like in the Clinton years we were making a really good paycheck, but still took out a new home equity loan each month.

We are trying to fix a credit/debt related problem by creating more credit/debt which is the core of the problem...hmmm.

Ponzi Yo.
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Old 02-11-2009   #8
 
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How old are you CasperMike that you thought the New Deal worked, it had effects, particularly on the self respect of some of those helped, but history is pretty clear, WWII saved our asses....and one of the things that sent us deeper into the depression was our tarriff schemes (trying to make americans buy american) as are being discussed now (not tarriffs,but other methods to do the same). Did not everyone else follow suit and we got screwed back then.

Remember we are net importers, Isolation would kill us and drive costs even higher than the massive inflation that is just around the corner.

Would you like fries with that...your total is $571.36...next.

Mind you the only solution I have to to spend less personally, I do not have a national soln besides accepting the pain and getting families to move back in with each other.
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Old 02-11-2009   #9
 
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RIPARIAN just like the last stimulus congress passed that did absolutely nothing. the new deal made money not only spent money. thats why they called it the "new deal"
The last "stimulus" was Bush's income tax rebate check plan. $600 per person. Didn't do squat. This stimulus package is completely different. There aren't checks going out to individuals, there are job-creation components along with a whole host of other stuff. You can't compare what was done last year to this plan.
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Old 02-11-2009   #10
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Don't sell Clinton (and his fiscally conservative Congress) short:




The theory is that, in relationship to Gross Domestic Product, certain levels of debt are sustainable, and even smart.

I don't have time to talk a lot about this right now. I agree that the debt level requires some adjective between "alarming" and "dangerous"; certainly unsustainable.

I think we're in uncharted territory here in economics history, and that fact alone should lead people to be cautious in everything they do with money.
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