Rolling Jubileeeeee! - Mountain Buzz
 



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-14-2012   #1
 
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 861
Rolling Jubileeeeee!

Brilliant idea!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/ny...ebts.html?_r=0

Strike Debt! Debt Resistance for the 99%

marko is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-14-2012   #2
 
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,017
Why is that brilliant? Every thing that is going on now, like the Fed holding interest rates artificially low and and this type of thing encourages borrowing and consuming over saving and producing. Right now I'm refinancing and it makes financial sense to drag out the loan over 30 years rather than paying it off earlier since the Fed's policies of inflating debt away will likely result in long term interest rates being less than the rate of inflation. I can actually save money by taking a 30 year loan than paying cash right now.

I just see moral hazard with this type of thing. People with crushing debt see themselves as victims. With the exception of unexpected medical expenses, it's not like this debt just showed up overnight. The majority of that 11 trillion dollar debt is people buying more crap than they could afford, all stimulated by the Fed keeping interest rates artificially low, creating a housing bubble and people using their home equity like an ATM machine.
blutzski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012   #3
 
dirtbagkayaker's Avatar
 
Poundtown, Wokastan
Paddling Since: 420
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutzski View Post
The majority of that 11 trillion dollar debt is people buying more crap than they could afford, all stimulated by the Fed keeping interest rates artificially low, creating a housing bubble and people using their home equity like an ATM machine.
Ever stop to think about the invasion armys we have over seas? This is the first war we have been in and not raised taxes. We actually lowered them for this war/invasion. The 11 trillion is not about what the average people of America have bought but more about what the government has bought and can't afford. Like the longest most expensive war ever. just saying.
__________________
I saw someone do it on youtube.
dirtbagkayaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-14-2012   #4
 
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtbagkayaker

Ever stop to think about the invasion armys we have over seas? This is the first war we have been in and not raised taxes. We actually lowered them for this war/invasion. The 11 trillion is not about what the average people of America have bought but more about what the government has bought and can't afford. Like the longest most expensive war ever. just saying.
Did you even read the article Marko posted? It said the American CONSUMER carries $11 trillion of debt. That is on top of the $16 trillion the government owes. Both the American consumer and American Government have spent like drunken sailors and are now being crushed under staggering debt.

You don't have to preach to me about war debt. I'm very critical of the cost of maintaining the American Empire. We don't need to raise taxes, we need to stop spending more on the military than the next 20 countries combined and maintaining military in 160 countries around the world.
blutzski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012   #5
 
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 861
Blutzski
I'm sorry that you cant see the brilliance in what they are doing. I don't really care to argue with you about this because all of the literature of what exactly they are doing to help people who are already in the debt collection stages of medical and student debt can and does speak for itself.

There is a much bigger picture of what is happening here and I think you are somehow missing it. Not sure why... Maybe lack of more info about it, or maybe ideology is in the way... I dunno. But, again, I'm not really interested in trying to disabuse you of your position.

Take care
marko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012   #6
 
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,017
I just saw the Debt Resitors Operators Manual in the llink you provided. 132 pages. I'll read through it when I have time and see if it changes my mind.
blutzski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012   #7
 
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutzski
I just saw the Debt Resitors Operators Manual in the llink you provided. 132 pages. I'll read through it when I have time and see if it changes my mind.
Cool. I understand your position about stopping the insane, irresponsible, spending binges, on credit, by both consumers and gov't. In fact, I agree. However, there are other aspects of going deeply into debt because of factors that reach beyond irresponsible spending behaviors (medical, student, temp loss of job, etc).

For ex: I am dealing with getting an education right now that happens to have increased in cost by 500% !! since the 1980's, while wages for non-college level jobs have stagnated in the same time period. How does a person with no monetary privilege pay for something that has increased 500% with a waged job that hasn't increased with it? Debt! So in order for me to get out of low wage jobs and into my future career I am forced to take out big loans to pay for the education process. I'm trying everything to reduce borrowing levels (grants, scholarships, working enough to survive without sacrificing grades - which also depend on grants and scholarships). but the bottom line is that it still requires me to go deep into debt. I'm doing all of this while HOPING the career I finally get into pays well enough to pay off the massive debt incurred, let alone maybe be able to buy a home.

My situation is the reality of millions!! I'm on a shoe string budget trying to survive, literally!, while trying to attain a higher education, and eventually a career (teacher). If I were to have any medical issues... I'm fucked! I hear these kinds of stories all the time as i talk with my classmates about this issue. So, to me, this is why I think the Rolling Jubilee is a wonderful and brilliant way to give debt relief to mainstream folks!

And if I were to ever hear some person tell me that I was just being irresponsible for putting myself into this position I will probably take measures to knock the smug privilege right the fuck out of them. Just thought I'd share that personal experience of mine to show it goes beyond just mere irresponsible borrowing behaviors.
marko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012   #8
 
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,017
I haven't read much of the Debt Resistor's Operators Manual yet, so I may still be unedumacated about this but I'll leave you this to chew on in the mean time. You are talking about student loan debt, which is primarily government debt. Stike Debt is talking about defaulting on consumer debt (credit card debt and mortgages) owed to financial institutions, which is primarily debt owed by people who simply bought more than they could afford. They should be talking about defaulting on government debt because it is the government guaranteed student loans that drove up the cost of education while simultaneously driving down the value of a college education. If they want to default on mortgage debt, they should also be targeting the Federal government rather than financial institutions since it is the Federal government that kept interest rates artificially low, thus creating the housing bubble and destroying our economy which caused people to loose their jobs and get crushed under the consumer debt that they accumulated. When you're a liberal organization it's easier to target those evil corporations than the benevolent federal government.
blutzski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012   #9
 
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutzski View Post
I haven't read much of the Debt Resistor's Operators Manual yet, so I may still be unedumacated about this but I'll leave you this to chew on in the mean time.
I've chewed over your comment... and God dammit... I feel the need to respond. I should have left it with my first comment...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutzski View Post
You are talking about student loan debt, which is primarily government debt.
Not so anymore. "Sally Mae has been full privatized" since its inception in 1972. If you don't wanna take Strike Debt's research at face value, here is a report from the Wharton School of the U of PA. Also, other private loans have exceeded 20% of student loans and are growing quickly due to the subsidized federal loans not covering cost of tuition. The girl I am dating right now is getting crushed by compound interest on her student loans that were supposed to be controlled interest federal loans. She signed up for forbearance on her student loan because of a loss of job a few year back. She finally got a descent paying job, but her loan went from $50,000 to $70,000 with accrued interest during this forbearance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutzski View Post
Stike Debt is talking about defaulting on consumer debt (credit card debt and mortgages) owed to financial institutions, which is primarily debt owed by people who simply bought more than they could afford.
Not so.... 1) Strike Debt simply isn't telling individuals to default on their debt; again, there is a much bigger thing happening here. You might see that if you decide to read their position. But here, let me copy and paste the very beginning for you:

"[This manual] aims to provide specific tactics for understanding and fighting against the debt system so that we can all reclaim our lives and our communities. It contains practical information, resources and insider tips for individuals dealing with the dilemma of indebtedness in the United States today and also introduces ideas for those who have made the decision to take collective action... This manual is not designed to provide legal counsel; it is a political act of mutual aid. We are not lawyers; you may want to consult one before doing anything that you think might be illegal. Look seriously into any of the options we present before taking action. Be smart."


A few things in brief: 1) Strike Debt created this manual to help educate people about their debt situations and what they can do individually - nowhere in here, that I can find, do they say, "Fuck it, bro... just default". 2) The Rolling Jubilee is a campaign started by Strike Debt that is designed to bail out main street people who have ALREADY defaulted.

And, yes, their radical end goal is stated near the end, "We are not looking for debt “forgiveness”; what we seek is the abolition of debt profiteering and its replacement by a society that nurtures the common good. We should be clear: we are not against all debt nor are we against credit. Rather, we call for new, fair arrangements that help us exceed the boundaries of the present (as credit does) without burdening the future in chains of compound interest."

Also, I think that your idea about consumer debt and mortgage debt all simply being about people buying "more than they could afford" is just too simplistic of an answer for such varying and complex life situations. I say this with sadness ( and not condescension or smugness) because I have sat down and listened to numerous people share their stories about how they got to where they are. I suggest you do the same thing some time.... it's a humbling experience to listen to your neighbors stories about how and why they got to where they are. Just a few weeks ago I listened to a 63 year old women talk about how she got into a major car accident about 8 years ago that resulted in a traumatic brain injury. She had insurance but it only went so far. She lost her job of 20 plus years because of the disability. Disability income and the charity of her family and friends only went so far. Final result: Massive credit card debt ensued to survive, and her home she owned for 24 years was foreclosed. It was fucking heartbreaking to sit there and listen to this real story. It was even more heartbreaking to see how US bank treated her after 2 long years in court battling mortgage fraud by sending in a militarized SWAT team who threw her to the ground with machine guns in her face, (footage at the 9:07 minute mark) and then had the eviction team throw all of her possessions out into the front yard. Sure, there are many who were irresponsible, and did stupid things (ahem, don't forget to include WALL ST!!)... but there are also endless stories like this 63 year old woman too. Your simplistic answer to consumer and mortgage debt makes you seem downright crass and shallow, and carelessly belittles people like her. And Blutzski, while I have never met you... I really doubt that you are a crass and shallow person. I'd bet with certainty that you care and love your family and friends quite a bit... But you come off as crass and shallow to me when you try to put millions of varying and complex real life debt situations into such a simplistic answer for consumer and mortgage debt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutzski View Post
They should be talking about defaulting on government debt because it is the government guaranteed student loans that drove up the cost of education while simultaneously driving down the value of a college education.
Again, they aren't talking about defaulting on debt. And, from what I understand, the serious college issues we are facing is a bit more complex than the "big bad government" schtick that the Libertarians and Repukes endlessly use to explain away all of society's ills. But that's another long comment...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutzski View Post
If they want to default on mortgage debt, they should also be targeting the Federal government rather than financial institutions since it is the Federal government that kept interest rates artificially low, thus creating the housing bubble and destroying our economy which caused people to loose their jobs and get crushed under the consumer debt that they accumulated.
Again...they aren't talking about defaulting on mortgage debt. And why not target both if one understands what a prominent senator once remarked about on who owns this place. One of my good friends is a pretty well connected fella. His father is connected to a lot of wealth, and his business partners are some pretty solid, honest business folk. He and his business partners are in the process of trying to buy $100 million blocks of real estate (yep, buying up blocks of real estate through out the country). Well these guys who are straight shooters went out to NYC to talk with the big boys on Wall St about some of these investments. When they came back they told him about their take on the major Wall St firms. He paraphrased it like this... "Those guys out there are straight crooks."

This is just one personal story. There are also plenty of other investigative things coming out into the light that reveal their crimes. LIBOR. Robo-signing frauds, and other frauds. Why people still defend these "too big to fail" financial institutions and can't see how they have usurped the gov't is beyond me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutzski View Post
When you're a liberal organization it's easier to target those evil corporations than the benevolent federal government.
Hahahahahaha... Occupy and Strike Debt is a liberal organization?? That's funny...


Take care, Blutzski. I hope that this comment of mine did not come off as condescending or rude. That is not my intention. Even if we both simply have to agree to disagree in the end, I appreciate your viewpoint.
marko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012   #10
 
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko
I hope that this comment of mine did not come off as condescending or rude. That is not my intention. Even if we both simply have to agree to disagree in the end, I appreciate your viewpoint.
I didn't see it as condescending or rude at all. And believe me, although we may disagree on a lot, I value your posts as the best articulated, well documented and most thought provoking posts here on the Buzz (except when you're just beating your head against a wall with Outlaw

While I read through the DROP manual, I'll just suggest that if they are not advocating defaulting on debt, they might think about changing their slogan from "To the financial institutions of the world, we have one thing to say to you. We owe you nothing." to avoid giving people like me the wrong impression.
blutzski is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Topic Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
the next level of rolling goldcamp Whitewater Kayaking 9 06-06-2007 08:30 PM
Rolling Clinics boc123 Commercial Posts 0 04-17-2006 05:29 PM
Rolling a C2 CUkayakGirl Whitewater Kayaking 0 11-09-2005 11:14 AM
rolling MONKEY#2 Whitewater Kayaking 19 05-11-2005 09:47 PM
Rolling a Raft? Peev Whitewater Rafting 0 05-10-2005 07:35 AM

» Classified Ads
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.