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Old 07-25-2017   #41
 
cedar city, Utah
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Originally Posted by dirtbagkayaker View Post
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Originally Posted by restrac2000 View Post
I didn't dodge hate coming from the left as you asked me to expose it on the right. I simply answered your question and now you have moved the goalposts. Extremist on both sides can be violent. Hyperpartisans like you on the right wave their hands about Berkeley while those on the left scream about classic examples in government studies like I linked. Both sides ignore the examples on their own side.

Its this very tendency that commercial media and politicians exploit to distract us from the hard work of legislation and governance. Its a brilliant strategy. Why should we reach across the aisle when we are constantly told others aren't acting in good faith? If the other side is always to blame then there is no reason to listen to their values or solutions. It's this massive negative feedback cycle that ultimately leads to the dysfunction we see today.
Wow you really believe in third wave conspiracy shit. The man is out to get you stuff. Maybe you need to talk with a professional????

This is where I stop because I wont entertain leftist conspiracy think because I know whats coming next..... "The Russians did it!"
Thats a hybridization of a strawman and ad hominem attack. Never claimed a conspiracy and I used the term "strategy" in its broader based meaning of "appearance of benefits" from "adaptations in behavior". Logical fallacies like you employ (intentionally or unintentionally) are powerful ways of avoiding critical analysis of public statements and ideas. Its a great example of my hypothesis about the disentegration of public discourse. Why would any want to listen to someone when others are claiming they need "professional help" and are engaging in conspiracies.

And if you don't believe me about the media's clear role in hyperpartisan rhetoric and civil tension then just use Google Scholar with terms like "hyperpartisan" and "cable media". Its a well-studied political and social psychological phenomena. It doesn't take much effort to find anecdotes every day that align with those peer-reviewed studies.

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Old 07-25-2017   #42
 
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2000 you must have a Philosophy 101 course or two under your belt for sure. But all you are doing is pointing at conspiracies. What did you mean by "Brilliant Strategy" if not conspiracy then what?

The media is not trying to divide. They want viewers and they push the political agenda of the owner. Is that not a fare statement? They will do and say anything for ratings and moneys. Nobody is holding a meeting to talk about how to divide america.

As for the left. The "Hillary Resistance" movement is so disturbing to me as an individual that I want to disconnect from it. And the leaders of it. That's my choice. Just like I would disconnect from a psychopath.

You seem to be on the left and you have engaged in conspiracy theories, name calling, and shaming in this thread. Just saying.. I will disconnect from Liberal think even more because of this conversation. I just don't identify, I don't get it, or understand any of the DNC policies as of lately. Hell who knows the future, the DNC might just get it together?? one never knows but I wont hold my breath.

*mic drop, you win, go hillary!*
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Old 07-25-2017   #43
 
cedar city, Utah
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I defined my use of the term "stragegy" and it has nothing to do with conspiracy. You are creating strawman arguments.

Go back to post #32 to see the context of my idea

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I don't know if it was an intentional goal of a political strategist but pitting Americans ideologically against each other instead of getting them to hold our politicians accountable is a brilliant way of maintaining the status quo
The only name/phrase I used with you is hyperpartisan which I support via your continued demonization of "leftist". For clarity, partisan can be an adjective that means "prejudiced in favor of a particular cause". It seems I have to define words for you if I want to avoid strawman attacks on your part.

I have never expected to change the mind of someone whose initial contribution in a thread about healthcare is to throw partisan grenades about violent left-leaning radicals or who makes unsupported claims about the costs of insuring the chronically ill. My intent in addressing your egregious posts is to counter them with facts and expose the fallacies used. I don't know if you will change your mind and don't really care. But there often bystanders who watch from the sidelines and misinformation like you have posted is a major issue if it goes uncontested.

The only personal partisan statement I have made is that I think we can eventually find a solution that addresses both our country's need for higher functioning healthcare while also addressing the inflating price of insurance premiums within certain regions. That is about as boringly moderate as it gets.
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Old 07-25-2017   #44
 
cedar city, Utah
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Restract - Excellent resources posted, they really point out the fallacies of some posters. Among the other symptoms of our cultural decay (or corruption) is the increasing abandonment of respect for these types of studies, especially by the media. We no longer even pretend to be on the same page.
Thanks.

I think another example are the CBO reports about various health care bills over last year. They are good faith attempts to clarify the effects of new legislation but often are cherry picked for content that supports a certain worldview. The nuance is often lost by the middleman telling the story.

Alot hinges on what the House does now that the Senate has passed a measure today. Its an ever evolving story.
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Old 07-25-2017   #45
 
Bayfield, Colorado
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Restrac
If 95% is the wrong number what is the correct one. 75%...85%. I wold like to know if those numbers exist in an accurate study.
Where I'm going with this is that 80% of people that DBK talks about. Holy shit that was my parents and yours and everyone elses. Not to mention grampa and grandma if your lucky enough to still have them. Those folks account for a huge percentage of DBK's 80%. Are there some low performing members of this society, absolutely. 80%... not so much.
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Old 07-25-2017   #46
 
cedar city, Utah
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DBK's #s are inaccurate (willing to stand corrected on that statement if it is backed up by solid research). The subpopulation you refer to is only responsible for the 11-13% of total health care spending in the US, according to the study I linked. And yeah, I think all of us have had grandparents rack up major medical bills later in life.

Sorry if my combination of the two ideas was confusing. My comment about fiscal mooching was in relationship to DBK' s comment, not yours.

A real life example of the broad reaching implications of healthcare reform...my wife and I will be unlikely to move in the future if the repeal happens and pre-existing conditions can be excluded. We are clinging to the lower end of the middle class and to secure a higher standard of living would likely require us to move out of current region. Geographic mobility is a common attribute and requirement of careers in the middle class. But I have chronic medical problems that can rack up serious bills when my health detoriates. Without a massive pay raise the risk of being uncovered for upwards of a year outweighs most benefits of potential job offers in my wife's field. There are many Americans in the same position which has a significant impact on individual quality of life and our national economy.

Hard to accept Repeal without Replacement (with equal protections) as a viable option in my shoes. We regulate industries like this because of how imbalanced and parasitic some markets and businesses can be when left to their own devices.
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Old 07-25-2017   #47
 
Bayfield, Colorado
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Only 11-13%. I would love a link to that study, thanks. This is a huge deal to all of us, the health care thing anyway. Especially in light of today's vote in the senate we all need to be aware of all the issues on both sides of the aisle and be willing to take the time to engage. I'm 58 and its a huge concern for me and my family. Tell you true I'm with the right in that I don't to pay for some dumb SOB that has made poor decisions their whole life through. But if your middle class and both of you work hard like myself and my spouse, YOU ARE ONE CAR WRECK OR MAJOR ILLNESS AWAY from being that dumb SOB. Just doesn't seem right to me especially in light of the profits that insurance companies seem to make year in and year out.
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Old 07-25-2017   #48
 
cedar city, Utah
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Only 11-13%. I would love a link to that study, thanks. This is a huge deal to all of us, the health care thing anyway. Especially in light of today's vote in the senate we all need to be aware of
Its linked above already in my initial response to you.
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Old 07-25-2017   #49
 
NE, Oregon
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DBK you make a number of assertions but never provide any evidence. You would be far more credible if you could find something to support your position...
From the GAO website linked earlier.
"During this period, no persons in the United States were killed in attacks carried out by persons believed to be motivated by extremist environmental beliefs, extremist ďanimal liberationĒ beliefs, or extremist far left beliefs."
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Old 07-26-2017   #50
 
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Pitting Americans ideologically against each other instead of getting them to hold our politicians accountable is a brilliant way of maintaining the status quo.
Yes.
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