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Old 09-04-2008   #1
 
saratoga, Wyoming
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Questions for Obama supporters

Hello folks:

I've been reading a few of the political threads here on the buzz and have come up with some questions for the liberal supporters in Colorado... well across the country for that matter. I must say that I'm neither red nor blue and stay pretty independent but lean towards the libertarian side. I will never claim to be politically savy as heliodros, marko, or even durango steve but I do read a few blogs from time to time and listen to some talk radio whenever I don't have clients in my truck. Spending 10/12 hours daily on the river over 200 days and another 100 on the snow doesn't allow me to stay up to date as most.

I understand that most Coloradans are liberals and I have a hard time understanding why. I think that most of us out here in the rocky mountain west are pretty independent people able to survive on our own. I hear in Obama's speech that he is his brothers keeper and I agree with him to a point but in the end aren't we all free autonomous individuals? Isn't that why we paddle and ski/ride? We choose our lines at our own discretion. Sure there are times when those paddling or riding with us push us a bit but in the end it's our choice to run or drop it. Why would we want government to control our lives like Obama says it should? Maybe control isn't the best word but it is pretty close. So my first question to the libs is why are you for big government? Doesn't big gov go angainst the roots of our country? I realize that there are some issues that are really important for libs such as health care. As a small business owner, and a guy who has had close to a dozen e-room visits in the past 5 years for dislocated shoulders, I understand the health care issues. I can't afford coverage either but I sure don't want the government to take over. I've heard the horror stories from Canucks and Euros and do not want to go through that.

My second question deals with ethics. Obama chose Biden as his running mate and this has me puzzled. Biden has sided with McCain more than Barrack on most issues including the war. He has said that Obama wasn't ready to be president but now he's all for it. It seems that washington liberals flip more on issues than conservatives and that is a big problem for me. I realize that socialism reads great on paper, and that we would all love if Moores Utopia really could work, but in reality it is impossible. As most commie regimes have proven absolute power corrupts... period. Why would Obamas wife plagarize one of the most marxist writers/thinkers in the 20th century and why should I stand for it? I taught high school English for a few years so this might hit closer to home for me than most. I just can't stress enough the importance of a student turning in thier own work... it is crucial in building a persons character. While on the issue of palgarism why should I elect a vice president that flunked a college course for getting caught plagarizing? I remeber taking a pledge in most of my classes that would have allowed me to get kicked out of school for such an act. Yet it's not just O.K. but we're expected to look the other way when the Obamas's wife and running mate do this. I realize there are more important issues but couldn't the same be said for picking on a 17 year old being pregnant? When did Obama's mamma have him? Wasn't it at the age of 18?

My third question deals with change. I hear many people, as well as the man himself, say how he (Obama) is going to change Washington. Do you really believe this? What kind of change is a Harvard Lawyer turned senator going to make. Isn't he up to his eyeballs in old time politics? Coming from Chicago should be a clue to all of us right... or should I say correct? I personally am tired of these elitists telling us that they know what is best for us. I really like the idea of change but do not believe that Barrack will ever change things. He will continue the Washington standard quo and keep up the same ole' bullshit as all career politicians. I realize that Palin may be too conservative for most libs but overall don't you agree that she repesents change? Blue-collar, hard-working, and no silver spoons. Any woman who can juggle a large family and still run one of the greatest states in our country should get a little credit. I think it would be great if McCain were elected, fell sick, leaving Palin in charge. She doesn't seem the type to take shit from anyone and can't do any worse than our current President. I honestly think that she is better qualified than Obama. It is my belief that a govenor gets more presidential like experience than a senator.

I realize I've opened myself to personal attacks from some of you buzzards but I have pretty broad shoulders so I'm not too concerned. I am from Wyoming and as posted in another thread most of us here don't get it. But that's really why I choose to live here. I am surrounded by like minded people who, to most of you, don't get it. I don't understand why anyone would choose to live in a place where he is surrounded by people he thinks are inferior. What's funny to me is that over half of my income comes from liberal Coloradans who choose to come here and spend time with me. Would you consider that ironic?

Paraphrasing another thread, I agree that our choices right now are between a douche and a turd sandwich, with the vice president being the deciding factor for me. In Pinedale there is a hippie shop that has a bumper sticker saying "if voting made a difference it'd be illegal". Though I don't agree 100% there is some truth there. It's not that voting doesn't make a difference rather than the people we have to choose don't make a difference. Let's face it the only way we are gong to change Washington is if we get rid of the bi-partisan ways. I don't know the answer but feel that this two party way, along with career politicians, has failed long enough.

It is too bad that we can't get behind our president like we got behind Phelps and all the other olympians. There is nothing better than watching a room full of different people slap high fives and smile because an American just beat the shit out of some shit-talking frenchie. Nothing scares me worse than having a President that will bow down to those same shit-talking frenchies. I think we ought to rename our country. I don't care what we call ourselves just as long as the word "united" is not in the title.

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Old 09-04-2008   #2
 
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I agree with 90% of what you just said, but Palin is no better. I just read this and it scares the shit out of me. God told Bush to go to war, sounds like Palin would do the same thing: Palin: Iraq war 'a task that is from God' - Yahoo! News

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Old 09-04-2008   #3
 
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who didn't tell bush to go to war............ ... .... ..

nicely put.
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Old 09-04-2008   #4
cma
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmpeddie View Post
Hello folks:

Let's face it the only way we are gong to change Washington is if we get rid of the bi-partisan ways.
I think you mean Partisan ways.. Bi-Partisan is cooperation and Partison is what we have now. I agree with most of what you say.. I wish the religious crap would go away though, there is no need for it. I can't think of anything that Biden has done in the senate that makes me think that change is on the way unless your version of change is just flipping from far right to far left.. us middle grounders (who I believe make up the majority) are screwed either way hence the Turd Sandwich and Giant Douche. Also I wonder why if Obama wants change so much that he has yet to stand in front of the senate, which he could at any time, and make a speech demanding that the name calling and stalemate in congress end right now and that congress do it's business and start helping the poeple of this country. Alas he has yet to do so, I could only dream.
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Old 09-04-2008   #5
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I didn't tell Bush to go to war; in fact I tried to tell him the opposite, but he wouldn't answer my phone calls- literally.

Canucks, Euros, frenchies? Know that the ethnic slurs do not lend you credibility.

I cannot speak for Joe Biden; as a teacher I agree that plagiarism is reprehensible. There are numerous replies for the so-called plagiarism of the Obamas. Michelle Obama used a fairly popular phrase which the media and others credited to one person. My instinct says that if we looked back, that person could be said to have plagiarized it from someone else. "The world as it is, and the world as it should be" is practically an idiom. The person Barack Obama supposedly plagiarized defended him himself:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/19/america/camp.php

Clinton aide accuses Obama of plagiarism - Mike Allen - Politico.com

Using popular phrases in political speeches is part of the art of persuasion. No one ever credits MLK Jr. when they say, "I Have a Dream," but we all know where it came from and what it means. Granted, using more obscure quotes should be credited to the proper source.

Remember that Socialism and Communism are two separate systems- socialist health care does not automatically give the government control over our lives. As someone else said, expensive private health care would still be available to those who could afford it. Private hospitals that only accept private health care would be in abundance- there's already one in Durango.

As far as change, I don't know if Obama will change politics- probably not. I do think that a woman who is pro-life and pro-family should not leave a 4 month old special needs child to run for government office. Before you say that's sexist, I also don't think a man with such a child should run for office. I'm sure that her other four children will help raise that child since that seems to be par for the course in these large families, but that is not the best thing for children or families. It seems hypocritical to me that Palin can espouse family values and not put her own family first.

I agree with much of what you said about voting and bipartisanship.
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Old 09-04-2008   #6
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmpeddie View Post
Hello folks:

I've been reading a few of the political threads here on the buzz and have come up with some questions for the liberal supporters in Colorado... well across the country for that matter. I must say that I'm neither red nor blue and stay pretty independent but lean towards the libertarian side. I will never claim to be politically savy as heliodros, marko, or even durango steve but I do read a few blogs from time to time and listen to some talk radio whenever I don't have clients in my truck. Spending 10/12 hours daily on the river over 200 days and another 100 on the snow doesn't allow me to stay up to date as most.

I understand that most Coloradans are liberals and I have a hard time understanding why. I think that most of us out here in the rocky mountain west are pretty independent people able to survive on our own. I hear in Obama's speech that he is his brothers keeper and I agree with him to a point but in the end aren't we all free autonomous individuals? Isn't that why we paddle and ski/ride? We choose our lines at our own discretion. Sure there are times when those paddling or riding with us push us a bit but in the end it's our choice to run or drop it. Why would we want government to control our lives like Obama says it should? Maybe control isn't the best word but it is pretty close. So my first question to the libs is why are you for big government? Doesn't big gov go angainst the roots of our country? I realize that there are some issues that are really important for libs such as health care. As a small business owner, and a guy who has had close to a dozen e-room visits in the past 5 years for dislocated shoulders, I understand the health care issues. I can't afford coverage either but I sure don't want the government to take over. I've heard the horror stories from Canucks and Euros and do not want to go through that.

My second question deals with ethics. Obama chose Biden as his running mate and this has me puzzled. Biden has sided with McCain more than Barrack on most issues including the war. He has said that Obama wasn't ready to be president but now he's all for it. It seems that washington liberals flip more on issues than conservatives and that is a big problem for me. I realize that socialism reads great on paper, and that we would all love if Moores Utopia really could work, but in reality it is impossible. As most commie regimes have proven absolute power corrupts... period. Why would Obamas wife plagarize one of the most marxist writers/thinkers in the 20th century and why should I stand for it? I taught high school English for a few years so this might hit closer to home for me than most. I just can't stress enough the importance of a student turning in thier own work... it is crucial in building a persons character. While on the issue of palgarism why should I elect a vice president that flunked a college course for getting caught plagarizing? I remeber taking a pledge in most of my classes that would have allowed me to get kicked out of school for such an act. Yet it's not just O.K. but we're expected to look the other way when the Obamas's wife and running mate do this. I realize there are more important issues but couldn't the same be said for picking on a 17 year old being pregnant? When did Obama's mamma have him? Wasn't it at the age of 18?

My third question deals with change. I hear many people, as well as the man himself, say how he (Obama) is going to change Washington. Do you really believe this? What kind of change is a Harvard Lawyer turned senator going to make. Isn't he up to his eyeballs in old time politics? Coming from Chicago should be a clue to all of us right... or should I say correct? I personally am tired of these elitists telling us that they know what is best for us. I really like the idea of change but do not believe that Barrack will ever change things. He will continue the Washington standard quo and keep up the same ole' bullshit as all career politicians. I realize that Palin may be too conservative for most libs but overall don't you agree that she repesents change? Blue-collar, hard-working, and no silver spoons. Any woman who can juggle a large family and still run one of the greatest states in our country should get a little credit. I think it would be great if McCain were elected, fell sick, leaving Palin in charge. She doesn't seem the type to take shit from anyone and can't do any worse than our current President. I honestly think that she is better qualified than Obama. It is my belief that a govenor gets more presidential like experience than a senator.

I realize I've opened myself to personal attacks from some of you buzzards but I have pretty broad shoulders so I'm not too concerned. I am from Wyoming and as posted in another thread most of us here don't get it. But that's really why I choose to live here. I am surrounded by like minded people who, to most of you, don't get it. I don't understand why anyone would choose to live in a place where he is surrounded by people he thinks are inferior. What's funny to me is that over half of my income comes from liberal Coloradans who choose to come here and spend time with me. Would you consider that ironic?

Paraphrasing another thread, I agree that our choices right now are between a douche and a turd sandwich, with the vice president being the deciding factor for me. In Pinedale there is a hippie shop that has a bumper sticker saying "if voting made a difference it'd be illegal". Though I don't agree 100% there is some truth there. It's not that voting doesn't make a difference rather than the people we have to choose don't make a difference. Let's face it the only way we are gong to change Washington is if we get rid of the bi-partisan ways. I don't know the answer but feel that this two party way, along with career politicians, has failed long enough.

It is too bad that we can't get behind our president like we got behind Phelps and all the other olympians. There is nothing better than watching a room full of different people slap high fives and smile because an American just beat the shit out of some shit-talking frenchie. Nothing scares me worse than having a President that will bow down to those same shit-talking frenchies. I think we ought to rename our country. I don't care what we call ourselves just as long as the word "united" is not in the title.
Believe it or not, I share lots of your libertarian views. In a perfect world, government would be small, the private sector would be responsible citizens, every American would have an equal chance to succeed or fail, regulation of industry would be unnecessary (see item 2) and personal responsibility would be the norm.

But we don't live in a perfect world. Pure laissez faire capitalism doesn't benefit the greater good, corporations slime their way along hoping not to get caught, individual responsibility is the exception, greedheads fill their pockets at the expense of the "little guy" and so on.

For most of my adult life I prided myself on taking nothing from the government, and requiring no assistance. I was fine paying taxes to fund programs that would benefit those less fortunate than me. In 2002 I found myself on the receiving end of a generous federal program. Our house had been slammed by a massive flash flood that followed the Missionary Ridge Fire outside of Durango. A spring-fed creek that got a little high during runoff became a 20-ft deep, 300-ft wide raging wall of water, mud and debris. It stripped our yard, slammed into our house, filled our crawlspace and generally scared the crap out of me. When the flood subsided, I knew what I had to do: build a big ass wall along the perimeter of our property.

The lovely FEMA bureaucrats were in town doling out low-interest loans to a few people burned out by the fire. They told me that I didn't qualify for a low-interest loan to build a protective berm because I wasn't affected by the fire. I reminded them that the flood came because of the fire. Didn't matter. They smiled and waved me off.

That afternoon I got a call from the NRCS (formerly Soil Conservation Service.) They had an obscure program that would help fund my berm construction. A buddy and I built a massive earthen structure (20 dumptrucks of compacted clay) faced with 4' granite boulders and concrete. The Feds paid for a good chunk of it, a wonderful thing for which I will forever be grateful.

I went from "I don't need any government help" to "thank God they were there" all because of a 35-minute raging flashflood.

No I don't think the government is the solution to all our problems. Nor do I think that, like Ronnie Raygun, the government is the problem. As is usually the case, the truth lies somewhere in between.

Obama/Biden is not a perfect political solution to our myriad problems, but I can say without hesitation that they are head and shoulders above McCain/Palin.

Most Coloradans in my estimation are independents, We're a purple state that votes for Dems and Repubs. We may be "liberal" compared to Wyoming, but sheesh, you guys created Dick Cheney, forchristsakes! For the record, I love Wyoming. I just wish you guys would leave those sheep alone!
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Old 09-04-2008   #7
 
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steve you have a house next to a creek and you didn't expect a flood at some point? you are a wakjob for sure, your choices are your problem not the government
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Old 09-04-2008   #8
 
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steve you have a house next to a creek and you didn't expect a flood at some point? you are a wakjob for sure, your choices are your problem not the government
We have a river on one side and a creek on another. We're 20 feet above the river (controlled by a dam) and 18 feet above the creek. We are required by our mortgage company to have flood insurance because of the river, not the creek. No one expected the creek to be a problem. Not actuaries, not the county, not us. The fire changed the rules completely.

Mike, you mindlessly parrot a right wing, oil bidness party line while consistently failing to defend your ravings. I realize you are young, but you have repeatedly shown yourself to be an ill-informed spokesmodel for your side. I have tried to resist ad hominem attacks on you, but you show no such self-restraint. I'm done trying to debate you. It's a pointless exercise.
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Old 09-04-2008   #9
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Old 09-04-2008   #10
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Neither party represents less government.

Look, if we had a parliamentary system for election of Executives, Bush would have been out of office in 2005 or 2006 due to lack of popular support. We don't; we have a system where, once every 4 years, the people get a chance to make a yes/no vote (because of the dominance of the 2-party system).

I have to take the world the way it is, not the way it should be.

If we could make the world the way it should be, we'd all be Libertarians.

What the Libertarian philosophy misses is that everyone blames someone else for their limitations and the consequences of their own bad decisions.
This is part of human nature; to deny one's own personal responsibility. People like the original poster are the exception, not the rule. And we're all guilty of it at some time or other.

The problem with democracy is that it makes human illogic an aggregate power in deciding what our government will be. It empowers mass hysteria to navigate.

That's the reality.
As an intelligent voter, I choose to be pragmatic about the world as it really is.

This mass hysteria impetus means that the majority who are below the economic median are going to continually try to take from those above it.

When I voted for Bush in 2000, it was because he best represented my Federalist leanings to limit government power. His promise to reduce taxation was important to me.

Unfortunately, he had no desire to act fiscally responsibly with spending, and allowed his Republican congress to increase the size and scope of government more than it has been increased since the 1930s, when the policies of the New Deal were implemented.

In his pursuit of fiscal policy (if there even was such) has undermined the American economy, and thus the American, far more than his tax cuts helped. He has lowered the economic standing of every single person in the United States with deficit spending that is unprecedented in US History.

So in this election cycle, my decision has to be whether or not voting AGAINST the Republican party will do more harm than good. But make no mistake, my first desire is to vote AGAINST the Republicans who betrayed their philosophy, and are now propogating a ludicrous denial of what they have wrought for the country.

In Obama, despite some concerns about increasing taxation, I see a person who has a pragmatic temperament, who considers input from people who disagree with his ideas, and shows signs of incorporating those divergent ideas when they show merit.

While I dislike giving the government the power to tax and regulate very much, the US is in a DIRE financial predicament with these deficits, and some taxation, in my economic opinion, is necessary and logical to slow the bleeding.

On the subject of fossil fuel use, the Republicans have shown no seriousness about the issue for the last 15 years, particularly as seen in their refusal for two decades to mandate an increase in fuel efficiency standards. In the face of a growing economic power of India and China (alone) this was obvious dereliction of duty to the middle class. Indeed, this dereliction of duty has hurt US industry, which relies on trucking to transport goods more than most any country on earth. It's also devestated the US auto market.

Fossil fuel use contributes to climate change, and climate change is real. How much man contributes to it will be widly discussed for decades to come, but clearly fossil fuel use is a contributing factor. Therefore, real and immediate efforts should be tried, even if some early ones are going to fail, such as Biofuels based on corn and sugar. A rapid re-orientation of our energy sources is necessary, and I'm not going to fault those who try and fail, because they're at least trying. I'm not opposed to more drilling for US sources of fossil fuel, particularly, but emphasizing that aspect as a cure all is an out-and-out lie.

One of the things the US government is actually good at is promoting new sectors of industry, and nuclear power (which is a particularly good mid-term solution for pollution) and renewable energy power could be very strong performers in the future, and the government should concern itself with enabling that far more than focusing on drilling from our rather paltry, accessible petroleum reserve. It's a tiny drop in the bucket of what we consume.

Alternative energy development is a major proposal (emphasis: proposal) of Obama's campaign (by comparison, limited government was a proposal of Bush's campaign, and we see how that turned out).

So on a few key issues facing the US and the world, Obama has demonstrated an awareness that I find appealing.
More importantly, temperamentally, his disposition is one that is ideally suited for this moment in time.

Combine that with the fact that my primary goal is to PUNISH the Republican party who betrayed its values, and I must vote for Obama this cycle.

Your values aren't your values if your choices don't uphold them.
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