Obama the socialist? - Mountain Buzz
 



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-18-2008   #1
 
Evergreen, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 316
Obama the socialist?

When you your product is not all that good, you slam your competitor and make false claims. Its a classic GOP tactic, scare people into voting for you.... so far we have heard Obama is a terrorist, a muslim, not a christian, wont say the pledge of allegiance, took his oath on the Koran.... Now he is a socialist...

I think McCain should find out what socialism is before he starts throwing that word out.

socialism - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Socialism:

Pronunciation:
\ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function:
noun
Date:
1837

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

benrodda is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-18-2008   #2
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 260
Government run healthcare is a socialist ideal. Don't deny that he does have some socialist leaning ideas, lets call it what it is.
kevintee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008   #3
 
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,431
Government run health care is socialistic,not necessarily socialism,but Obama ISN'T advocating government run health care contrary to what you heard on Fox!He is advocating an employer based system with the existing insurance companies still in place.You can keep the plan you already have if you want.He gives tax credits to small businesses and individuals.If you want to call increased regulation of insurance companies and pharmecutical manufacturers socialistic, it is, barely.
If I were a repub I'd be critical of the increased burden that may be put on some employers.I am not too sympathetic to the wealthy but,it hurts our manufacturing sector to pay health ins. while their competitors don't.A GM car has something like $1500 cost in health care for employees.No matter who pays you,the employer,gov.,or some combination,doesn't it make sense to address the exorbitant costs?It is well established that we get much less per dollar than other modern urban industrialized nations; because they focus on preventative care [PART OF OBAMA'S PLAN],eliminate profit,reduce the paperwork generated by the plethora of insurance companies and gov.agencies bickering over who will and won't pay for what.We can't do this because it would violate the sacred cow[right up your alley Mike ,jk] of free enterprise,non interference in private business,a prime example of laissez faire capitalism defying common sense.Obama is very upfront about how it will be paid for ,ROLLING BACK Bushes tax cuts on people making over $250,000 dollars a year ,NOT a tax increase on middle class people or small businesses like republican spinmeisters keep LYING about.
cayo 2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-18-2008   #4
 
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,431
Benrodda,I think Proudhon would define/specify property as critical resources , industrial systems,infrastructure ,etc. not modest land holdings and personal belongings.Even if you don't personally own it you get to use your share and have a share in it's ownership .In our system owning something means every one else doesn't own it ,so you can charge a fee that relates to ownership rather than /on top of work/ value added to it.In essence you hold resources hostage and charge a ransom.
cayo 2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2008   #5
Self-Aggrandizing jackass
 
heliodorus04's Avatar
 
The Ranch, Colorado
Paddling Since: 04
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by benrodda View Post
When you your product is not all that good, you slam your competitor and make false claims. Its a classic GOP tactic, scare people into voting for you....

Since my guy (Obama) has a higher probability of winning the election, I can take it down a notch on my pro-Democrat position.

As a guy fighting for the Reconquesta of the Republican party (or at least the conservative position), here's my concern with the quote above.

Both sides use fear. Sure, I think what McCain has done has been a bit farther from what I consider tolerable in some cases, and the snapshot of Appalachia McCain supporters does give one pause as to which century we're in, the left works it too. Saying things like "war with Iran" or "Give YOUR money to his Super-Rich Friends" is fear-mongering.

I'm not so Polyanna that I think this stuff will go away, from either side, and I'm not so naive to think it doesn't sway some. Frankly, when you get right down to it, I think I'm the only one reasonable enough to be given the right to vote, so I don't care.

There are a few good reasons to vote for McCain, even if you disagree with them. We shouldn't assume that people are voting for McCain because they're scared of socialism any more than we should assume whites are voting for Obama because of "White Guilt."

People should be encouraged to look at the same facts and come to different conclusions about what they mean, and when they reach that point, they should affably walk the fuck away.
__________________
"self-aggrandizing jackass" - it says it right on the label
heliodorus04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2008   #6
 
El Flaco's Avatar
 
Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1984
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,890
I noticed today that some observant fellow noted in a letter to Time Magazine:
Quote:
"Bravo, Congress! You have now proved that we have socialism for the wealthy and capitalism for the rest of us ordinary citizens!"
El Flaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2008   #7
 
Evergreen, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 316
Helio,

Yeah both candidates use the whole fear thing. But I kinda of think that your statement about McCain going a bit further is understated.

They knew where people would go when they brought up the Ayers thing. They cant be that stupid. Tieing the word "terrorist" to man who's middle name happens to be "Hussein" and has been blamed for being a closet radical Muslim goes way further than the fear tactics the Dems have brought up.

This latest deal about socialism is frustrating to me because I hear this all the time from my conservative friends (I was formerly conservative and voted for Bush last time). Its a flat out lie when you know what socialism is.

Cayo I am not sure I understand what you are saying. I am thinking that Holding health care ransom is what insurance companies do? Is this a fair statement?
benrodda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2008   #8
 
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,431
Benrodda,

I wasn't arguing with you but part 2a] of the definition you posted,"a system of society or group living in which there is no private property"was trying to point out that it depends how property is defined.That makes it sound like you can't have anything.I was referring more to physical resources and critical systems being held hostage than health care but now that you mention it,it is a critical system.
If resources were publicly held then you deploy them to address need.In our system each owner determines their use based upon maximizing his profit in some financial term ie quarter ,fiscal year,5 yr. plan ,etc.Is it any wonder that a series of short sighted self serving decisions accrues to create the economic mess we are in!Would not want the application of forethought that would be social engineering.We engineer buildings but not the super structure of society ,makes a lot of sense
cayo 2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2008   #9
Self-Aggrandizing jackass
 
heliodorus04's Avatar
 
The Ranch, Colorado
Paddling Since: 04
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by benrodda View Post
Helio,

Yeah both candidates use the whole fear thing. But I kinda of think that your statement about McCain going a bit further is understated.
It is understated; I'm about ready to start playing nice with in-denial conservatives about why the party is now on verge of irrelevancy. Part of that is winning the party back from theocrats and chronyists of oligarchs; language and courtesy should matter.

As for the virulently anti-socialist Republicans, most of them are probably in supreme ignorance about any basic economics postures. It doesn't take much to realize socializing certain sectors where public need or a public overwhelming opinion doesn't have to be a bad thing. The mere existence of the US Treasury Bank is a key undermining of true free-market enterprise. But since it has a pretty overwhelming positive effect (or at least most market critics, rightly or wrongly, have the opinion that it does) no one gives it much thought.

Looking at the difference in countries that socialize certain resources, like oil or natural gas (as the Alaskans do) isn't a very bad idea, either. It would be nice to think we all own the resources that produce our energy, because no one can deny that we all need, and should have right to, governmentally subsidized energy in order to pursue that pre-amble vaguery, "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". That would get most fiscal conservatives apopletic fits.

To me, being fiscally conservative and being socially libertarian means that fiscal policy should promote social liberty.
__________________
"self-aggrandizing jackass" - it says it right on the label
heliodorus04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2008   #10
Self-Aggrandizing jackass
 
heliodorus04's Avatar
 
The Ranch, Colorado
Paddling Since: 04
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,134
I stand corrected about McCain. Saw him on Chris Wallace's show, and he's gotten worse, really.

Well, in the end, this is what Rove politics were all about. Total machiavellian.

If there is to be a new conservative movement that actually wants MY support, it's going to have to repudiate Rove as divisive. I think the lasting damage the Republican apparatus has done to the nation will see the end of the party forever. And that's fine with me.
__________________
"self-aggrandizing jackass" - it says it right on the label
heliodorus04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Topic Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Obama the undetectable lier caspermike The Eddy 17 10-15-2008 02:11 PM
Let's go the truth on Obama! mr. compassionate The Eddy 100 10-02-2008 02:38 PM
Why Obama is the conservative candidate heliodorus04 The Eddy 6 09-19-2008 08:45 AM
Questions for Obama supporters rmpeddie The Eddy 65 09-09-2008 08:47 AM
Palin, fundraiser for Obama? gh The Eddy 5 09-04-2008 06:34 PM

» Classified Ads
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.