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Old 03-02-2009   #1
 
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#1 qualification for a position in the new administration!

It seems the primary qualification to land a job in the new administration is "tax cheat". If this was not such a trend and obvious indicator of integrity, I'd be laughing.

Trade Nominee Ron Kirk to Pay $10,000 in Back Taxes - Presidential Politics | Political News - FOXNews.com

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Old 03-02-2009   #2
 
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Yup, it is a pretty unsettling trend, isn't it?

Ya know, if I were a conservative whose "philosophy" of laissez faire economics had led to the self-regulation, deregulation and lax regulation of the post-Reagan era that directly set the stage for our economic meltdown, I'd probably be pointing out the tax cheat thang too. I mean, it's so much easier than actually admitting that your economic theory has been an unsustainable, unethical, abysmal failure, right?
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Old 03-02-2009   #3
 
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Originally Posted by Riparian View Post
Yup, it is a pretty unsettling trend, isn't it?

Ya know, if I were a conservative whose "philosophy" of laissez faire economics had led to the self-regulation, deregulation and lax regulation of the post-Reagan era that directly set the stage for our economic meltdown, I'd probably be pointing out the tax cheat thang too. I mean, it's so much easier than actually admitting that your economic theory has been an unsustainable, unethical, abysmal failure, right?

Stock market is responding well to all the new proposals, where is the bottom, 0? You should really read more about the causes of our current crisis. You are so mislead... must be easy to blame Bush for everything happening now, you seem to forget he inherited a recession and overcame the biggest one day economic disaster the country has ever endured. Not to mention navigated one of worst decades of natural disasters ever recorded.

Reaganomics generated the longest period of sustainable economic growth and increased wealth in the entire history of the country. These economic policies created the largest expansion of the middle class, ever.

I've posted a mountain of evidence as to the Republican attempts to regulate the mortgage industry and reform Fannie and Freddie. I guess you only read things that you agree with.
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Old 03-02-2009   #4
 
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Fannie. Freddie. You think that they're the root of this debacle? Really? They're part of the picture, to be sure, but they're not the root.

Did I blame Bush specifically? Nope. He just carried on the lousy Reagan Voodoo Economics, as did Clinton. We do know, however, that median family income DECLINED under Bush.

You trickle-downers crack me up. Do you have a bust of David Stockman on your mantle? Maybe a little altar with candles and incense? The gap between rich and poor began to widen during Reagan's reign, and has grown ever since.

I rely on Darth Cheney to define one of the many fallacies of Reaganomics: "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." (Except when they're Democratic deficits, right?)
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Old 03-02-2009   #5
 
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Ridiculous........placing blame on one president, a series of presidents, a party. Also to think that a president (or two or three) has hastened the gap in socioeconomic status.

Sorry, but from what I see.......It's people not the policies, per se. The gap in rich/poor is because much of this country is becoming pretty friggen stupid and lazy with absolutely NO idea what WORKING really means...and don't understand how to better themselves and this country. The successful??? They know what it means (albeit there have been a select few that have raped their investors and made the news).

I wonder if it's because of an abundance of...."hey, the government will take care of you...give us all control, we know what's best for you and your family, we'll take care of you"......."go ahead and F#$k up, the government will bail you out".........

I'm kinda black and white......I don't give a shit about parties.......I just see a bunch of blame placing. Sadly NO PARTY and/or policies are going to correct this countries problems.....quite frankly BOTH parties think they know what's best for "us" and they both have it wrong.

HOW do you inspire people from all socioeconomic levels to desire to better themselves and this country?????

I don't think bail-outs are the answer.
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Old 03-02-2009   #6
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It's the derivatives, stupid. That's the link that broke a way stretched out chain.
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Old 03-03-2009   #7
 
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It's the derivatives, stupid. That's the link that broke a way stretched out chain.
Buffett called 'em "financial weapons of mass destruction". Good call. Between that and the margarita song, I kinda like the guy. Unfortunately, Greenspan championed derivatives as a way to spread risk throughout the system. In so doing, he helped create the conditions for collapse.

Quote:
Ridiculous........placing blame on one president, a series of presidents, a party.
You're right. We should place the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of ignorant consumers who were sold mortgages they couldn't afford by brokers who didn't care. Yeah, right. Claiming that self-regulation, deregulation and lax regulation played no role in the meltdown is pure absurdity. We need to be clear that policies and bad examples set at the top permeated the entire economic system. In that sense, "trickle down" worked. We are now eating the bitter fruits of 30 years of economic recklessness that was sold as "free market economics".

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I'm kinda black and white...
Yes you are. We agree on that.

Having a strong and sustainable middle class is what creates stability in a modern, developed economy. Undermining the middle and lower classes through bad policies sets the stage for economic and social upheaval. Nobody wants that. It's not simply a moral issue, it's common sense. Few people in the USA want full-blown socialism. It's not in our political DNA. But rigging the system in favor of the top tier for three decades has caused a willingness on the part of a growing number of Americans to accept more "socialist" elements in our economic system. Rewarding initiative is good, but rewarding greed is what we've done.
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Old 03-03-2009   #8
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Rip, we disagree on Reagan. For me, Reagan will always be the standard for good economic policy on a conservative bent, and Clinton will be the standard for good policy on a democratic/liberal bent. Reagan's deficits (quote!) 'didn't matter' in the sense that 1) they did what they were designed to do - end the Soviet state, and just as importantly 2) Were brought back in balance by Clinton during his administration. Absent those two factors, Reagan's deficits could've been disastrous.Not to get off onto a "Reagan was the greatest" thread, though... We agree that a vibrant, strong, and large middle class is essential to the health and stability of a society. I believe evidence is strong that (watch my verb tense here) Trickle-Down was successful from Reagan to Clinton. But the world started changing and the implications for capital changed once the Pacific Rim economies started becoming viable investment entities (and also Central/South America). Once capital investment started leaving US production operations for overseas, investment went to foreign entities (dollars out of US circulation) while profit remained in the individual's hands (giant yachts in Fort Lauderdale). That's the point where Trickle-down seems to have jumped the shark.I won't argue that Trickle-down ever was the best, most practical approach for the middle class, though. I don't know that either way.
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Old 03-03-2009   #9
 
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Originally Posted by Riparian View Post

You're right. We should place the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of ignorant consumers who were sold mortgages they couldn't afford by brokers who didn't care. Yeah, right.

Rewarding initiative is good, but rewarding greed is what we've done.
I agree with you there.....

Where did I say we should place the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of ignorant consumers??? There were warnings however, I quite distinctly remember a few people cautioning a collapse, urging people to be more careful. Few listened, they were getting a great "deal". I was guilty, I had a (kinda) crappy mortgage, but I saw the writing on the wall and bailed before it got REALLY shitty. I sure as hell wouldn't expect the government to save my ass.

Thanks for helping make my point though......."ignorant consumers".....agreed. Who the hell thinks they can afford a $300k house while making $40k??? One hell of a salesman/broker....seems like simple math to me.

My point was just that more government deciding what's best for us doesn't seem to be the answer and that policies that reward greed send the wrong message.

Don't you agree that "bail-outs" are similar to rewarding greed?? Not as all monies are being applied but certainly a few.

Helio....are you calling me stupid???
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Old 03-03-2009   #10
 
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Where did I say we should place the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of ignorant consumers???
You didn't. I was making the point that the causes of the collapse are many.

Quote:
Thanks for helping make my point though......."ignorant consumers".....agreed. Who the hell thinks they can afford a $300k house while making $40k??? One hell of a salesman/broker....seems like simple math to me.
No doubt. There was a general (and foolish) assumption from bankers to consumers that property values would continue to climb endlessly.

Quote:
Don't you agree that "bail-outs" are similar to rewarding greed?? Not as all monies are being applied but certainly a few.
Yes I do. It sends the wrong message. But the alternative in these tenuous times is very dangerous.

I think we're seeing the pendulum swing too far in response to the excesses of the last three decades. Having more rational regulations would have prevented that.
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