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Safety lines/ perimeter lines

29K views 70 replies 30 participants last post by  BoilermakerU 
#1 ·
It seems like I keep seeing boats for sale and in TRs without a safety/chicken/perimeter line.

It seems like in a previous thread somewhere on here (search revealed too many references) it seems there were some posts against perimeter lines.

Are there really those of you who are against this rope? In the very few (ok more than a few been doing this a while) instances I have had the shit hit the fan the rope around the boat was key to keeping people next to the raft, to help in reentry and I have never seen anyone entangled in any way on the rope.

For those of you just entering the sport or getting their first boat I feel like this rope is a critical piece of safety equipment.
 
#2 ·
Every boat is rigged differently. My boat has oars hung on both sides that offer a perfect hand hold. The oars are the closest thing to the rung of a ladder you can imagine.

A chicken line would be just another piece of rigging to clutter the sides of the boat. They would run under the oars so you would have to reach under the oars to grab the line. I've practiced using the line to step on an boost myself back into the boat and it really doesn't work so well. It seems that it is always too loose or too tight to give that extra boost to get back on board.

I'm working on a wide pice webbing device to function like a ladder to get back in the boat that will hang from the frame. Getting back into or on top of the boat is an critical safety issue.

The Chicken line provides no function at the bow and stern that I can see.

So thats my boat but your boat may be different.
 
#23 ·
I'm working on a wide pice webbing device to function like a ladder to get back in the boat that will hang from the frame. Getting back into or on top of the boat is an critical safety issue.
David,
Stitches N' Stuff and gcpba.com have a ladder available. The latter being more expensive but spring loaded. The SNS unit just tosses in a bag and is quite convenient.

As for chicken lines, I prefer 1/2 inch tubular webbing because rope digs into my legs when paddling.
 
#3 ·
We still use a chicken line on our raft. It seems especially useful in the bow, for a passenger to grab on to. It is also important if you get separated from your boat that someone else have something to grab. Yes there are risks, but it is all a tradeoff. We try to keep ours snug.
 
#4 ·
I don't run a chicken line, no particular reason though. When I first started I was told it could be a entanglement hazard, but it seems pretty unlikely unless the rope is really loose.

I have handles and D-rings all the way around my boat and in case of a swim or flip when it is setup as a paddle rig, I have never had a problem getting someone back to the boat or staying with the boat. When I am setup with a frame, there is lots of stuff to grab onto.

The main benefit I can see is being able to hand over hand along the chicken line to move around the boat to a better place to climb in. When you are pulling a boat off a rock, the chicken line could help since it gives you more places to grab the raft. T get around this, I use a webbing flipline and biner and clip it on a d-ring. I think it just falls back on to preference and how you learned.
 
#5 ·
I also would appreciate any real world safety issues you have seen related to someone getting taggled or fouled up in the safety line.

The only one I have seen was at camp. Someone stepping off a soft boat carrying groceries with hands full. Foot under rope and slow motion trip with a barrel roll across fairly smooth rocks - and stuck the landing emerging upright, groceries mainly intact and forward progress barely slowed. A couple of bruises but no blood. At least not flowing.

So what you got?

Oh yeah - while we are talking safety who tosses their throw bag regularly/recently/this spring?
 
#65 ·
I also would appreciate any real world safety issues you have seen related to someone getting taggled or fouled up in the safety line.

The only one I have seen was at camp. Someone stepping off a soft boat carrying groceries with hands full. Foot under rope and slow motion trip with a barrel roll across fairly smooth rocks - and stuck the landing emerging upright, groceries mainly intact and forward progress barely slowed. A couple of bruises but no blood. At least not flowing.

So what you got?
Just the other day I was reading the accident reports on the American Whitewater site for the Middle fork Salmon. There was an incident in 1995 where a passenger was entangled in a perimeter line after a boat wrapped or stuck in Haystack rapid and drowned on a commercially guided boat. The passengers in the boat could have cut the line but the didn't in time. I'm pretty sure this incident prompted a couple outfitters to stop running perimeter lines on the MFS, as well as others.
 
#6 ·
I like the chicken line on a boat but prefer to use 1" tubular webbing. I string it tight. Sits nice and flush against the tube, no tripping or rope abrasions. Easy enough to grab or hook on to but never in the way. Works as a great spare anchor in rescue situations, cut it off use it to wrap around that giant boulder. New one is only $20. Also like to ship my oars under the chicken line when tied up.
 
#9 ·
Couldn't you sew a cam onto that 1 " tubular? Eliminate any reason to cut it.
{One could throw a half hitch in to make 'er fast. I'm actually going to use two welded O rings here as my cam.}
Place a foam backed pad under/around it.
Easy to tighten needed as nylon will stretch over time.
Good to take on and off for that anchor amendment.

(With the easy tighten feature I wouldn't think doing a wrap on each D would be necessary. Only one wrap would be needed on the first D 'behind' the cam.)

=========

You can get the webbing for 36 cents a foot, (with shipping), on almost everyones favorite auction site. 15 yards should get 'er done.
search 1 inch tubular nylon
 
#7 ·
I've always run chicken lines, no entanglements on the water, but I've seen trips on land like you mentioned, carvedog.

I like the flat tubing rationale. Easier on legs and knuckles, and lays flatter against the boat. I'll probably swap mine out this spring. I also ship my oars there, III100.

I tossed my throw rope one warm afternoon in February with my daughter. Time to do more!!
 
#8 ·
I have one on my boat.

We were doing flip practice at Glenwood Wave in some other boat. On one instance, the boat taco'd in the flip. A buddy fell across the boat as it flipped over the top of him. His head went under the perimeter line. He was stuck under the line, under the boat with his head hidden under the boat. He had a helmet with a bill on it and was unable to lift the line over the bill on his helmet. He tried a few times, unbuckled his helmet and was able to get out.
 
#10 ·
I'm a fan of perimeter lines. With it a swimmer can come up anyplace at all and get a fast hold without having to think much about it. In a pinch that's what you want. Though the bow and stern areas may be a bit out of reach, not always and, the line also provides something to hold onto from inside the boat. Had one friend go head over heels out the front of a boat but stayed with the boat because he grabbed the perimeter line on his way out. Handy for tying drag bags and for kayakers and IK's to come aside for nourishment. I also loop mine at the bow and stern and caribiner my bow and stern line to the perimeter line to distribute the stress/load across multiple D rings instead of just one. Never had any issues with entanglement or otherwise. I use nylon webbing so it lays flat when the boat has to be rolled. Same webbing has been on one boat since 1994.
 
#11 ·
On my 10' NRS raft (somewhat like a mini-max) I run webbing on both sides between the D-rings and use that in place of a chicken line. The webbing is tied to one D ring and attached to the other D ring with a carabiner - it's snug against the tube but loose enough you can detach the biner if needed. The raft is so small there is really no need to have a chicken line run around the entire boat and it keeps the bow/stern clear.

On a related note, when I run the raft down small, technical rivers I attach a 6' NRS strap to the D ring on the stern and let it drag - it comes in handy when the raft gets stuck in tight or shallow spots as it allows me to pull or swing the raft without having to be right next to it.
 
#12 ·
On a related note, when I run the raft down small, technical rivers I attach a 6' NRS strap to the D ring on the stern and let it drag - it comes in handy when the raft gets stuck in tight or shallow spots as it allows me to pull or swing the raft without having to be right next to it.
Hey, just like tag lines many catboaters use! Nice. I have been planning the same thing next multiday on the raft, put a tag line or two or three on it. Especially for solo boat trips, if you are out, it can really help get back to the boat and stay with it in turbulent water.
 
#16 ·
I've never had it hang up on anything except for my guide stick when I am paddle rafting. Like anything, I'm sure it can and will if you are scraping over rocks. If you tuck the cam up in the drain hole it helps reduce the issue. That being said, I think I have only done it a couple of times, so not a regular practice.

If you have trouble heaving yourself up on a flipped boat, having a little something something to pull on is always nice. you can always rig the strap on one side and only spanning a few drain holes if you don't like the idea of the strap running across the bottom of the boat.
 
#17 ·
The appeal of the d-ring to d-ring was that I could heave myself up, maintain contact with it, and then use it to flip as well.

I haven't had much problem getting on top of a flipped boat (yet!) just sticking my fingers in the floor lacing (or gap between floor and tube), and have flipped both Maravias and Aires on the fly. I have long arms...hasn't been an issue...yet!

I've used my PFD cowtail to flip a raft whose owner hadn't rigged it with flip lines.
 
#50 ·
I've used my PFD cowtail to flip a raft whose owner hadn't rigged it with flip lines.
No sure what a PFD cowtail is - but I think of 3/8 or 1/4 rope on a biner wrapped around the PFD waist kind of thing. Or do I got it wrong?

I tossed my throw rope one warm afternoon in February with my daughter.
Awesome my girls like to do this too. I pretend 'swim' past them on dry land of course and have them save me. Might come in handy someday.

I have one on my boat.
We were doing flip practice at Glenwood Wave in some other boat. On one instance, the boat taco'd in the flip. A buddy fell across the boat as it flipped over the top of him. His head went under the perimeter line. He was stuck under the line, under the boat with his head hidden under the boat. He had a helmet with a bill on it and was unable to lift the line over the bill on his helmet. He tried a few times, unbuckled his helmet and was able to get out.
Scary. And in a severe taco there is nothing you can do - the line will become slackish. Unless you invent some tensioning device and that has so many design challenges....not going there.

One of the reasons I started this tred is that it's time to replace mine.
I might have to try the tubing. So it seems like some are using Polyester, some nylon tubing, some polypro webbing.

Looks to be 1 inch tubing and webbing. I just had a thought to sew up some buckle covers and try this.

I have had trouble with some polyester webbing in getting bite at the cam. Did this work on the perimeter line?

Anyone tried tubing through a cam?
 
#20 ·
Chicken Line - I run with a rope one on the round boat and rig it D-ring to D-ring every put-in to ensure it is kept taught.
Never had an issue but am very wary of some of the drooping lines I see along other boats at times.

Tag Lines - On the cat, all four tips, on the raft front and rear, on the IK just the rear.
I use 6 or 9' straps but have been seeing some really long ones (12') on cats lately. What's up with that?

Throw Ropes - I've tossed all of them at least once in the yard this year.
After a trip I make a habit of pulling them all out of the bags to dry (sometimes soak first if it was a sandy / silty trip), then re-pack.
 
#21 ·
I have a rope line on my Cat. On my new raft, I'm using the flat tubular webbing. Not nylon though. Nylon absorbs water, stretches like crazy, and will eventually mildew and rot. I found poly webbing from strap works.com. Same soft feel like nylon, but better around water. I'll see how I like the webbing. So far I like how flat it lays against the tubes.
 
#26 ·
I have a rope line on my Cat. On my new raft, I'm using the flat tubular webbing. Not nylon though. Nylon absorbs water, stretches like crazy, and will eventually mildew and rot. I found poly webbing from strap works.com. Same soft feel like nylon, but better around water. I'll see how I like the webbing. So far I like how flat it lays against the tubes.
Would that be polyester or polypropylene?
They sell both.

Nylon has by far the greatest moisture absorption (from 2% to 9%)
Polyesters typically absorb less than 1%
Polypropylene absorbs no water whatsoever

Nylon is marginally stronger than polyester under steady pressure.
Under dynamic loads nylon is significantly stronger.
However, polyester and polypropylene ropes are generally stronger than nylon ropes when wet.

For a good rope material comparison table goto:
Rope specifications. cordage specifications
(Aramid refers to kevlar btw)
 
#22 ·
I have a chicken line (rope) on my boat. I thought about using webbing but sometimes it's hard to grab it as you are being thrown from the boat (learned that the hard way). The rope sticks out a little so it's easier to grab (as long as it tight).

As far as the tag lines being discussed here... I know a boater on here who uses them but has them short and comes out the drain holes on the bottom. We call them "old man straps". Maybe he'll chime in on their effectiveness. ;)
 
#41 ·
As far as the tag lines being discussed here... I know a boater on here who uses them but has them short and comes out the drain holes on the bottom. We call them "old man straps". Maybe he'll chime in on their effectiveness. ;)
Yeah, Kendi, we love those "old man straps" peeking through the floor lacing of an upside down raft. They sure make it easier to get on top of your boat in a pinch. I watched some friends hanging on to the chicken line of their overturned paddle raft all the way through Staircase Rapid on the S. Fk. of the Payette, not being able to get up on the boat in the violent high water. Some "old man straps" maybe could have prevented some of the bleeding...

Seems to me I see a lot of 20 somethings needing to use the straps in flip practice during Guide Training...
 
#25 ·
We only use a chicken line when we run a paddle raft, and we use cam straps instead of a rope so they lay flat and are adjustable.

I've been ejected 2 or 3 times now from the raft and have never gotten tangled up in the line, once when we had a horrible captain and I was in the water for a while I was glad the chicken line did go around the entire boat because the boat kept spinning and I did NOT want to be on the downstream side. So I kept pulling myself to the back of the boat again and again, then Bob yelled for me to just self rescue since another person managed to fall out while I was in the water so I did. Loved the chicken line that day, won't paddle raft without one but when the frame is on it seems pointless.
 
#29 ·
Tag lines, I use 7' off the tips and 6' on the sides. Some people use longer so they can reflip them, but I don't like them that long. 6'-7' seem ok, linger they seem to start to wrap around stuff, like an oar, or worse perhaps. There's always a risk, but they save a lot of bacon when you are in the water. Flat webbing only, polypro so it floats. Rope and tubular are much more prone to
Getting pinched into/between things and stuck.
 
#31 ·
Cams and double rings are a good idea for tensioning a chicken line. I use bowlines and trial and error until i get it the way I want it which is pretty tight. As far as safety lines go I run 1 grab line on the raft and 4 tag lines on the cat. I utilized the grab line on the cat last spring in a huge flip, but only because I held onto the oars too long and was way out of position. I took it off this year as I plan on staying in the cockpit when I go upside down...gotta stay near that portal to the other side and the bungy flip lines
 
#33 ·
Years ago we had a raft flip on the Klickitat due to an inexperienced paddle crew hitting a tree broadside. The raft swamped and flipped under the tree, and actually pushed the tree up as it passed under. This particular raft had a rather large pool rope as a perimeter line, and it caught the stump of a branch and ended up hooked to the tree, upside down. All the rafters were okay, so one of our IK guys paddled out, jumped on the raft floor, and cut the perimeter line. I have a line on my boat, but it's much smaller.
 
#35 ·
Here's a picture comparing two suspension systems on hammocks. The top is the 1 inch polypro webbing and cinch buckle system I now use that holds very well and doesn't slip or need a back-up knot. The lower is climbing rated descender rings. You weave the webbing through it like the belt buckle video that was posted. What I learned the hard way was that even when loaded (my fat butt in the hammock) the webbing could still slip if a slippery half hitch wasn't tied in behind the rings. The trick to using it on a perimeter line would be attaching the webbing permanently to one end of the system around the rings. Should be easy with access to a bar tack machine. Then use the rings to tighter up the line and tie a safety back-up knot with the tail end of the webbing. Hmmmm????
 
#40 ·
Should be easy with access to a bar tack machine. Then use the rings to tighter up the line and tie a safety back-up knot with the tail end of the webbing. Hmmmm????
I'm liking the polyester webbing, the two halves to the chicken line finishing in the front and the knot to limit slippage through the rings.
Thanks

Those knots in the front can also work as a hold for the crew in wave attack mode.
Here is where the strap works folks provide a specialized grip for just that:



I can't do their custom goodie but we can just tie the Knot(s) exactly where we want and be good. Will need some play but not too much. No loops in the knots that would act as handcuffs.

====================

Also picture the back of the chicken line by the cargo set up like this Daisy Chain Cam Strap.
Daisy Chain Cam Straps



Ignore the cam and even the biners in the photo for this location.
The polyester chicken line comes back on itself through a sewn loop. No surprise there and that's how it attaches to the rear D Ring. Nothing to tie.
It then stays double up the side about 4 feet and is bar tacked about every 4 inches providing attachment slots for the webbing coming through that goes back to the cams on the netted/mesh cargo restraint. Some of the cargo webs will match the D Rings on the boat but this 'Daisy Chain' feature will provide more attachment points for the OCD folks like myself. AND keep cams from touching my boat or people.
I'm all better now.

=========

The polyester webbing doesn't float but it doesn't have to in this use. It does everything else right.
The Tag Line beside the boat needs to be a bright lighter colored Polypro that floats. Different story.
 
#36 ·
No one's mentioned the boat lugging advantage of a chicken line. I would say I've carried many a boat to the water's edge. The Upper Gauley's put-in comes to mind. I think it's fair to state that most boats have 4 handles with 2 on each side, and it's way nicer to have that chicken line where you can recruit 5 or more friends or randoms to assist in lessening the inevitable finger crumpling. This is not to say the 4 handles (ok maybe 6 in some cases) couldn't be used too.

Noting that both my round boat and cat have chicken lines. No related mishaps(yet). And I haven't pulled out the throw rope yet this year.
 
#42 ·
I've used tag lines on my cats and IKs for serveral years now. I'd mostly poo-poo'd the arguments of then being a hazard.

Last week, running EF Clear Creek out of Winslow, I had my stern tag line from my IK knot itself around a willow tree. Right above a must-make move. Luckily it was the stern and the boat stabilized without sending me swimming above a dangerous feature.

I had to resort to cutting it with my river knife. I've been boating 30+ years and this was the first time I've ever had to use my river knife in a combat situation.

My takeaway, I think, is I will use painters when I'm on big water where a flip might separate me from my boat. But I don't think I'll be using them on my normal low water technical floats, as wood is just an ever present reality up here, and that was damn scary.
 
#49 ·
I use a chicken line and keep it really tight. I pump the raft all the way up and tighten the line as much as possible. I then deflate the raft a bit and try to get a couple more inched out of the line. It's been like that for 12 years now.

I have also had an "old man" ladder on the bow and stern just as long. I run a piece of 1" polypro from one side to the other knotting it into the floor grommets. 2 in front, 2 in back, just up from the bottom of the rocker about 12" apart. They were as tight as I could get them when new but they have stretched and sagged but have yet to get caught up on something.

I used them for the first time on the Lochsa 2 years ago and it's very handy to work my way down the chicken line to one end of the raft and pull my way up the end. Especially if you've exerted a bunch of energy in cold water swimming back to the raft.
 
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