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Old 09-10-2008  
 
Chip's Avatar
 
SE, Wyoming
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More Games with Frames

For those who sent PMs about the frame-building, here are some photos of the new breakdown cat frame I'm fabricating, shown without oarstands, seat, etc.

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It's 88 inches long and 57 inches wide, with 30 inches between the tubes (relatively narrow— I've got 15-ft. x 19-inch tubes). The tubing is steel chainlink toprail (1.315" od). Besides the toprail, the parts include 1-inch Hollaender SpeedRail joints: 16 Tee-E. The double corners are from Sid's Sports.

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The two center crosspieces support the seat. The rear bay holds the icechest.

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This shows the front: Sid's double corners, footbar, drops. The footbar is made from a weird piece of double-bend tubing that I found at an ag supply. The curved drops are 1" EMT conduit elbows (see below) that fits nicely inside the top-rail.

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The 1" EMT conduit has pieces of top-rail braised on to mate with the SpeedRail joint. (There's a spot of rust around the braising, so I'll hit this with a wire brush and paint it.)

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The double corners are from Sid's Sports (listed on the Jack's Plastic Welding website). All the tube-to-tube joints are drilled and pinned with 1/4" machine screws and acorn nuts. The corner pieces are die-stamped (LFO = left front outside, etc.) and I'll stamp the new top-rail to match, so it's easy to put together.

Once I get the oarstands, seat, floor and decking on, I'll shoot a few more pics.

happy tinkering—
Chip

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Old 09-10-2008  
 
DurangoSteve's Avatar
 
Durango, Colorado
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Man, I enjoy your frame threads. Are you using dowels inside the tube-to-tube joints on this frame?
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Old 09-10-2008  
 
Chip's Avatar
 
SE, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Dowels?

No dowel-joints (if you mean the sort used by NRS, i.e. with a solid piece of metal inside).

The Sid's corners are swaged (or swedged? -necked-down) to fit inside the toprail, with about 6" overlap: good, strong joint. The lower end of the conduit drops slip inside the toprail, with about 5 inches overlap. I drill the holes for the machine screws, standardizing the distance from the end.

But there are 2" pieces of 1-1/4" hardwood dowel inside the ends of the tubes that mate with the SpeedRail Tees— otherwise the setscrews squash the thinwall steel tubing. They can be epoxied in place, but since I re-use pieces of toprail (and either drive the dowel plugs in farther or pull them out) I usually just droozle in some oil (linseed, Danish, whatever) to swell the wood. Otherwise the wood dowel dries out and gets loose.

Bye the bye, I just weighed the thing as pictured: 53 lbs. I'd guess that's lighter than an NRS aluminum frame of the same dimensions.

cheers,
Chip
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Old 09-11-2008  
 
Chip's Avatar
 
SE, Wyoming
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Fitted out

Here's the frame with seat, oarstands, icechest, etc.— pretty standard stuff. The unusual bit is a 3-piece dog deck, of PolyMax kennel floor, that splits to create footroom for a human (or at least humanoid) passenger.

The separate frame up front was built to fit York Packs, which nestle down nicely between the tubes, a high and buoyant load that helps carry the bow over waves. If I need weight up front for good trim, I carry 3-gal. watercans outboard. Under the dog-deck and seat I load the tent, grill, and similar low-profile, squashable stuff. The two aluminum goodies by the seat are Personal Dry Boxes from Cambridge Welding (from Cascade Outfitters). When the frame is rigged, the tubes tip them outboard, so you can flop the lids out and use them for trays.

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This is the deck set up for the dog. In use, it'll be held by 1-ft. straps.

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The center section has been taken out and the two sides pushed apart so someone can ride on the icechest (the plastic buckles are to mount a Crazy Creek canoe chair).

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This shows the deck from underneath. The inner edges of the wing pieces are supported by aluminum tubing cut to rest on the crossbars and pop- riveted to the plastic grid. The center section is supported by a piece of doorsill from the scrap bin, held on with cable ties. It goes farther forward than the other pieces, and the seatboard rests on it. I miscalculated a bit— cut the frame tubes too short— but it's simpler to trim the decking than re-cut and re-drill new frame tubing.

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Here's the way I cut the end of the aluminum tubing to fit over the crossbar. Tubing is quite stiff for the weight (at 225, I can stand on this deck but probably not bounce on it) but you could use angle or channel instead. My choice of material often owes to the fact that I live 30+ miles from the nearest hardware store.

I'm looking forward to a shakedown trip this fall. Thoughts and suggestions gratefully accepted.

Chip
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Old 09-11-2008  
 
DurangoSteve's Avatar
 
Durango, Colorado
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Nicely thought out, nicely executed!
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Old 09-11-2008  
 
Chip's Avatar
 
SE, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,099
Ruby checks it out. . .

Thanks for the kind words.

This sort of tinkering is really a pleasure. I can't understand how some people just buy a frame and then leave it as-is. I like to start out with some parts— reinventing the wheel, perhaps— but the results are most often satisfying. Or at least bloody interesting, as you recognise your mistakes in the course of a week on the water.

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Ruby jumped right on— good sign. Right after I took this, she lay down, heaved a big sigh, and went to sleep.

Chip
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Old 09-12-2008  
 
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at my house, Montana
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As you know, I agree, rigging my boat is a huge pleasure. And when the dogs jump on and lay down, relaxed but ready to go play, my heart just sings!

However, I about ran out of enjoyment rigging the new boat right before our vacation. "urethane failure" about put me over the top. I'll post some photos of the new frame, designed around the concept of Grand Canyon setups, with LOTS of room for the pups, sometime this weekend. (1 photo included here). It did take quite a few days on that first trip to get balanced. I had to move a lot of weight into the front of the boat so she rode level. I ended up with the fire pan, kitchen bag, 2 chairs and 2 tables under the front hatches. When I take it out on the Lochsa next year I think I'll be running the fire pan and chairs in those front bays to help punching the big waves!

I sure am jealous of your "personal dryboxes". The ammo cans for my cockpit take a bit of work to open (open one hatch, slide the can towards that hatch, then open the other), and I came home from this trip really wanting a personal dry box. Well, I've spent enough on this boat and rigging it this year. Maybe next year....

So now I'm back to just playing with the boat. I bought oar stands from Clavey, and they are from AAA, and HATE them! they are raked at a sharp angle and I couldn't get the geometry to work out between tipping them in and out and having enough oar between them and the angle of the oarlock. So I'm getting new ones from DRE that are much more parallel with the stand. I did have to order them 2 inches taller than their normal. I am not ruling out shortening the 10' oars down to 9.5'. Play play play. the fine balance between oar length for oaring, and also fitting between rocks and tight spots!

P.S. - That's an awfully small cooler!
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Old 09-12-2008  
 
Chip's Avatar
 
SE, Wyoming
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Nice pic— the doggos look happy. From your lower Salmon trip?

The trim looks pretty well aft, which would tend to kick the bow up rather than punching through— if your mate's a huge sort of bloke, that'd help. Or rigging the watercans and extra beer for'ard.

Shame about the Clavey oarstands— having dinked a lot with setscrews and SpeedRail joints, when you said you were getting extra-tall stands I was dubious, but then you have schedule 40 frame tubing, with a pretty thick wall. Clavey says to tighten the screw several times to make a dimple— I might even slip the joint aside and use a countersink, so the screw won't skate.

But given your double-rail frame, you might look at an old-timey oarstand that mounts on a plate, with u-bolts, to both bars (like the ones shown on this thread). No problems with leverage, but you can't swivel 'em outboard. You could make 'em adjust outboard by drilling more holes in the plates. Cambridge Welding or some local shop could likely make a pair to your spec.

I fell out of love with ammo cans when I opened up my knuckles popping the latch on one, then had to row with an oozing gash— bloody ouch!

Since you don't mention it, I guess the footbar worked.

Chip

p.s. 60 qt. seems like a huge cooler to me. Did I tell you about running a 25 quart cooler on Deso in mid-August (duckie trip), and having iced G & T at five of the six camps? It takes severe discipline. And no beer storage whatsoever.
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Old 09-12-2008  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip View Post
Nice pic— the doggos look happy. From your lower Salmon trip?

The trim looks pretty well aft, which would tend to kick the bow up rather than punching through— if your mate's a huge sort of bloke, that'd help. Or rigging the watercans and extra beer for'ard.
Yup, that was the 1st morning, day 2, so my rigging was horrible. We got it pretty level by the end. It wasn't until day 4 that I really realized how bad it was. When I ran snowhole (overrated Class IV but with big waves) I threw the firepan and kitchen bag in the bow (while Jeff and the dogs walked). That helped a lot. Next day those two went in the hatch, still not enough. Next day the tables and chairs went in the other hatch and that was good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip View Post
But given your double-rail frame, you might look at an old-timey oarstand that mounts on a plate, with u-bolts, to both bars (like the ones shown on this thread). No problems with leverage, but you can't swivel 'em outboard. You could make 'em adjust outboard by drilling more holes in the plates. Cambridge Welding or some local shop could likely make a pair to your spec.
I spoke with the dogs about that, and they didn't want me to obstruct the platform fore to aft as they like a nice clear run! Seriously, that's the main reason I didn't, to keep those side decks clear for the pups. Plus the lack of adjustability. I'll probably never stop adjusting my oars!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip View Post
Since you don't mention it, I guess the footbar worked.
Shoot, I still need to get a TR and photos together (and a package in the mail). It worked perfect. We did end up making it skinnier, to fit the ammo cans as I originally though, and we ended up with plenty of foot room. Ah well, that's the beauty of it being somewhat modular! Jeff did the mod on it (hacksaw & epoxy - yuk!)

Chip

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip View Post
p.s. 60 qt. seems like a huge cooler to me. Did I tell you about running a 25 quart cooler on Deso in mid-August (duckie trip), and having iced G & T at five of the six camps? It takes severe discipline. And no beer storage whatsoever.
Yes you did, hence my jab. Shoot, I think our day cooler was 25 qts or something like that! We had our 128 qt cooler with 6 blocks of ice in the bottom, took up 2/3. Foil covered bubble wrap and food to the top of the cooler. Filled the sucker up. We had WAY too much food, and we don't plan our menus based on space. But we ended the trip with ice, and did not try too hard for severe cooler management. We even ended up taking stuff out for lunch, and putting it back in at the end of the day. Very very bad cooler management, but we could get away with it. This was our first time using the DO on the river, and I think we're going to buy a smaller one as every DO meal ended up as 2 (with leftover in cooler ), although it was nice not cooking, and lasagna and enchiladas are better on day 2 anyways!

Taking a WW rescue class next weekend, have fun on Deso. I also hope to get one nice fall day on the river tomorrow....
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Old 09-12-2008  
 
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Oh, and we are beached in that photo, so the stern looks WAAAAY low.
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