Beware of Salmon River Rules and draconian enforcement - Page 6 - Mountain Buzz
 

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Old 02-05-2019   #51
 
elkhaven's Avatar
 
Belgrade, Montana
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Sep 2013
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Once again, reading comprehension on the Buzz sucks.... The dude acted under the intent of the law, he canceled a permit that wasn't going to be used in plenty of time for someone else to pick it up, as I'd bet someone did.... Then the rules that are clearly written and have to have deadlines kicked in and banned him. In the normal world the administrator that he talked to would have seen that the intent of the rule was followed even if the specifics we violated and reversed the ban. Everyone of you that has bagged on the OP would hope for that same resolution if you were in his shoes... what I wonder is, if you knew the rules and feared a ban, would you have kept the permit, gone, checked in as a single boat then waited for the other permit holders to actually launch or catch up to you? Would you have buried that permit or returned it so it could be used? To me the OP is right, this whole thing could have been handled differently... nit picking rules by a day is lame. We need common sense, not people that can't look past the fine print. This whole thing would have worked differently when people were directly involved.... the computer triggered the ban and people were too blind to admit that in this case a ban is not necessary. Those of you that are arguing that he gets what he deserves are nearsighted dumbasses!

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Old 02-05-2019   #52
 
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1988
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 29
From these 5 pages of replies it appears most would have just been happy with just one permit, so if are going to game the system and go after more using friends/family, at least have the dignity to accept the cancellation consequences clearly spelled out in the regs or just keep quiet about it. As there are plenty of people, myself included, whom have never gotten a Salmon permit, and accordingly any attitude that appears indignant to that isn't going to garner a lot of sympathy among 'buzzards nor inspires goodwill in others...say to invite you on their trips. That said, if this was post was simply a reminder of these flawed rules that information would indeed be helpful.
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Old 02-05-2019   #53
 
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Bazzaro, Free
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@elk, the computer has screwed up both ways over the years... Just like people do. The system sucked 30 years ago and it still sucks today. When people ran the show and you had to call daily, it was a complete cluster muck! The part that sucks is that too many people want on! Always been that way. If you've been in the permit game for any length of time, you know that you are on thin ice playing the pick up and cancel game. We all know that you don't take a permit unless you are 110%. Anyone who cancels a permit is a nearsighted dumbass that should expect no sympathy from the buzz.. Cancelling is like spiting in the popes eye! Bad things are going to happen in your life it just karma. I'd keep my mouth shut if I cancelled a permit. Who does that? I would have put together two parties. Just saying.
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Old 02-05-2019   #54
 
Boise, ID
Paddling Since: '99
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 247
There's a rabbit hole we're looking down into here. Is there any difference between using the second permit for a smaller group and then meeting up with the other permit vs picking up a cancellation and taking one boat and two people? Both happen all the time.

Personally, if I made this mistake, I would have called and asked for forgiveness and taken my lumps if there was no forgiveness. I think his warning was great. Even though the cancellation rules are clear and listed both at rec.gov and usfs websites, how many people commented in this thread that they were unaware?

Here's what rubbed me

Quote:
However, the Ranger, Ken, will not succumb to cimmon sense. I am not done fighting this. I will move up the chain all the way to the Secretary of the Interior if need be. I’ve been through too much for this land to not be able to enjoy it.
Ranger Ken was doing his job and following the rules laid out before him. OP wants to fight this. I agree with the rule but what I agree with doesn't matter. I don't think the Ranger is out of line or not using common sense. He's dealing with more users than ever, a cut budget, and people not reading simple rules and calling him up trying to get around things. I feel bad for the fed employees right now.

As for being able to enjoy the land, there's a lot of public land to enjoy and he can still enjoy the Main. He just doesn't get to be a very lucky individual who draws the coveted permit. It's not like he got locked out of anything. Personally, I'd rather be a guest on a competent TL's permit than being the TL. I'll always TL or help TL someone's permit if they ask me to. Hell, I'll TL and outfit a 24 person trip with my own gear except for boats and not ask for any group funds other than food and shuttle for an invite on a permit. I guess different strokes...

And really, the consequences are not that big of a deal. He can't apply for the Main for three years. He can still apply for every other lotto out there, he can still go on someone else's permit, and he can still pick up cancellations.

These comments didn't make me think ol' Franky was using common sense himself.

Quote:
So you can get a permit with 21
Days left cancel the next day and you’re screwed but if you get a permit with 20’days left you don’t have to cancel at all or use the permit. The next year you’ll be just fine you’re and idiot, a commercial boater or work for the Forrest Sevice. That’s the only way you could argue in the side of stupidly.
Quote:
You should apologize to every tree around you for wasting the oxygen they have produced.
Quote:
Anyway, before your man pleaser starts up again you should know this was a warning for those that thought common sense would be applied to the rules.
Quote:
Only the commercial boaters would object.
Quote:
Please read and understand before spewing your scoldings.
Quote:
You’re a moron and have no idea what my intentions were. ....Please read and understand the technicality that the adults are discussing. I haven’t been on the buzz in a while but it seems to have turned into the island of trolls. This is a technicality that shouldn’t exist and grown ups are discussing it. If you do t have anything productive to say go back to your video game.
I usually reserve patience for children having temper tantrums but not adults. The dude got to go on the Main and he'll get to go on other trips in the future. It wasn't so much that I disagree with him, it's more that he made a mistake, made a dust up that it's someone else's fault, and still ultimately got to do a trip that I've put in for for 20 years and never have drawn my own permit. Three year's ban from applying just doesn't seem like a reason to crap yourself and then rub your hands in it.
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Old 02-05-2019   #55
 
Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9
Why is this a big deal? He got to on the river and hes banned from the lottery for three years. Whats the chance of him actually getting a permit in those 3 years anyway? 3%?
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Old 02-05-2019   #56
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitty View Post
Why is this a big deal?
All the rivers are iced up and the passes are snowed. Its getting closer and closer to the whitewater lotteries. Tensions are high! Got make something a big deal. Time to wax the board and hit the slopes....
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Old 02-05-2019   #57
 
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Belgrade, Montana
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It's not a big deal and DBK nailed why it's still a discussion... but to me, the OP did the right thing and got penalized for it... that's what I think is wrong. He acted in the best interest of other people looking to get on the river, he followed the intent of the law and returned the permit as soon as he realized they had two permits. In my mind the Ranger should have seen that and simply lifted the ban.... The rule was put in place to keep people from holding onto just in case permits. The 21 day deadline is essentially arbitrary, a trigger point for a computer to identify. I'm not arguing that it's better now, or was better back when... just lamenting that back when humans had a direct roll in this type of thing they'd most likely have seen what the OP was doing and none of this would be a concern.

I thank the OP for what he did and bringing it up here. Go ahead and point to the rule book but remember, someday it'll be you standing on the wrong side of that line and I just hope you all have more understanding for the OP's position when that happens.
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Old 02-05-2019   #58
 
Boise, ID
Paddling Since: '99
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 247
Nah, if I'm in the OPs position, I'll be bummed and maybe give a warning to others. I won't go online to say a single ranger lacks common sense (he reports to someone somewhere), that anyone that disagrees with me is either a child, moron, man pleaser, commercial boater, or federal employee. He wanted an adult conversation, none of those things are part of an adult conversation.

Then I'll go on a river trip or four like I do every year and bitch about the system with my buddies while we sit riverside by the fire pan sipping nice bourbon full on good food.

And not that it matters, but it does sound a little like a "just in case permit". If I'm part of a group and score a cancellation, I tell the group cause I'm stoked. Everyone quits trying to get one because we have one. Either he forgot to tell which is weird because usually people are excited or his sis was still looking for something a little better. I don't blame them in either case. If they were trying for two, they did a good job. I've been on trips like that and don't have a problem with it. Just seems weird but every boating group is different and I wasn't there. That is a lot of conjecture and assumptions on my part and I'll admit that.

Really, I don't care. I'm sitting in front of computer waiting on a call. I'm sure it will keep snowing, it will melt, we'll all get on good fun river trips and all will be right with the world.
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Old 03-14-2019   #59
 
portland, Oregon
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13
Yah pretty sure the Sec of the Interior don’t give AF. But I love your fire. If you’re going all the way to the top can you add that the whole lottery system needs revamped. Not the latest one either. It’s unfair that people who win over and over are just as likely to get yet another permit and some folks haven’t scored a permit in years I’ve got zero degrees in lottery management but seems to me this is common sense. If it were me I would have just combined the permits and not said a word. 🤫
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Old 03-15-2019   #60
 
Boise, ID
Paddling Since: '99
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 247
Just went to the liquor store for a grip of favorite bourbons because an invite to to spend your summer 40th b-day on the Salmon river is appreciated and rewarded.
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