Interest in Middle Fork of the Salmon? - Page 5 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 04-08-2019   #41
Dipshit with the most.
 
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Bellevue, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,803
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Originally Posted by landslide View Post
...., honestly, if you're doing a high water trip, you have to assume you might encounter new wood hazards the whole way down. That's just the nature of a high water trip! If you can't handle high water conditions, then don't get a pre-season or early season permit
Yes on this. New wood will be coming down and moving at any time. Usually stops doing this after it peaks, but no guarantees.

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Originally Posted by landslide View Post
If I could make one single change to the permit system it would be this: You can cancel your permit anytime you want, but if the level is below 6 feet on launch day and no one else claims your cancelled permit, then you get hit with the penalty: No permit for the next three years. That would certainly motivate a lot of people to get real about their chances for launching. Sh## or get off the groover already!

The FS doesn't want unqualified people on the river any more than I do. The current cancellation policy seems about right. Maybe you were or weren't aware of it.

"Cancellation Requirements and Late Cancellation Penalty
If you cannot make the trip, you must cancel your reservation in your Recreation.gov profile. Cancel your reservation at www.recreation.gov as soon as possible, yet no later than 21 calendar days prior to your launch date.

When water levels exceed 5.0 feet, or if the road to Boundary Creek is not open, the time requirements may be waived, but a cancellation must always be submitted through your Recreation.gov profile. Recreation fees will be refunded once a cancellation is submitted.

Failure to provide a timely cancellation will trigger a late cancellation penalty, and you will be restricted from holding a permit on this river for three years. However, your recreation fees will be refunded if you submit a cancellation at Recreation.gov prior to your launch date."

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Old 04-08-2019   #42
 
Bellingham, Washington
Paddling Since: 1998
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 164
My suggestion to change to the cancellation policy was meant to address two different problems: 1) As it stands now, lots of folks are holding pre-season and early season permits when high water is all but given, yet many of these people simply do not have the skills to do a high water trip. They are hoping that the road to Boundary opens early and that the level will be around 4 feet for their whole trip. The chances of that happening are slim to none depending on the date, but so long as the level is above 5 feet on launch day, they can hold their permit right up until the last minute without getting penalized. And that is pure Bravo Sierra. If you don't have the skills to do a high water trip, then don't lock up a permit you can't use.

To paraphrase a comment you made earlier, carvedog, just because the level is too high for one boater, doesn't mean it's too high for someone else. When someone holds a permit they have almost no chance of using, they are preventing someone else from doing a trip. And that needs to stop.

2) There was a thread not long ago from a guy who was seriously butt-hurt because he had picked up a cancelled permit inside the 3 week window, and then immediately cancelled it when he learned that someone else in his group also picked up a permit. And then he got hit with the penalty! I believe this is a flaw in the system because he completely complied with the INTENT of the regulation, which is to make sure no permit goes unused.

My suggestion was that you can cancel a permit any time you want before the launch date, but if the permit goes unused (by you or anyone else), then YOU get hit with the penalty. I'm not sure the FS has the data on hand to make that work (probably not), but it would certainly penalize people who are holding onto permits they have no realistic chance of using.

Speaking of which, Banner Summit is now at 126% of normal SWE. If anyone reading this locked up a pre-season permit with the hope of a low water year, you are out of luck. Please don't hold your permit until the last minute expecting a miracle to happen. You are most certainly NOT going to be awakened in the middle of the night by the Guardian Angel of Boating who will bestow upon you the skills to run continuous Class IV water. If you don't have those skills now, you won't have them next month.
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Old 04-08-2019   #43
 
Bellingham, Washington
Paddling Since: 1998
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 164
Sorry, carvedog, I did not address your point about not wanting to encounter a shitshow on Marsh Creek from a group that shouldn't be there in the first place. And increasing the chance of a penalty (as I suggested) could definitely result in someone launching who shouldn't.

It's just frustrating when people who have the skills to do a high water trip can't get a permit until the very last second because so many permits are locked up by people who never had a realistic chance of launching in the first place. Hopefully, this thread will motivate some folks to do the right thing.
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Old 04-08-2019   #44
Dipshit with the most.
 
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Bellevue, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by landslide View Post
Sorry, carvedog, I did not address your point about not wanting to encounter a shitshow on Marsh Creek from a group that shouldn't be there in the first place. And increasing the chance of a penalty (as I suggested) could definitely result in someone launching who shouldn't.

It's just frustrating when people who have the skills to do a high water trip can't get a permit until the very last second because so many permits are locked up by people who never had a realistic chance of launching in the first place. Hopefully, this thread will motivate some folks to do the right thing.
I get it. Both things. The frustration with the last minute cancellations and the epic shitshow on Marsh.

It's worse for me in the fall, with so many people who know they won't go.
I know there will be a bunch of cancellations in the last two weeks of September. At least then I can grab one three weeks out within a day or two of my target and go. A little nerve wracking when it gets to the three week no-penalty 'window'. But then like magic they show up. Not so in the spring for sure.
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