Need a Permit if you never touch the bank? - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 11-07-2011   #1
 
San Jose, CA, California
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Need a Permit if you never touch the bank?

According to state water law could you run a permitted section of river without a permit as long as you never toughed the banks of the river?

The state owns the water not the parks or land management agency's.

Westwater would be a good example of this concept as you could make the run with out touching the permitted land.

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Old 11-07-2011   #2
 
Jenks, Oklahoma
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I like the thought process and

it might stand up in court
but
my real world bet would be the WW rangers would find out somehow you did a un permitted run and fine you.
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Old 11-07-2011   #3
 
Park City, Utah
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Stupid

This has to be the dumbest idea I have ever seen on the Buzz. Forcing an agency that is largely on the side of managed acess for the public to fight the very law that allows us access. I like your intellectual energy, but focus it on how to solve unemployment and not on tearing down the right of access for the public through the state.

Sorry for the rant, but holy crap, you want to turn the water regulators and the purveyors of access against the boating public. Come on man!
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Old 11-07-2011   #4
 
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Suck it canada!!

Stupid hoser!
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Old 11-07-2011   #5
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I have not boated WW as of yet. How do you intend to get the boat in and out of the river? Perhaps a new sport ala McConkey: ski, base jump, land in the water? Wait, still can't get out.
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Old 11-07-2011   #6
 
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Not for the idea but heres how you do it: Launch upstream of run, take out downstream of run, pretty simple.
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Old 11-07-2011   #7
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right,right, gotcha...
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Old 11-07-2011   #8
 
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Makes me think of the time a guy used a hovercraft on a road and got pulled over for speeding. He argues he "wasn't on the roadway" and was immune. The judge didn't agree with his theory.

When I ran WW a few weeks ago there was a ranger in the start of the canyon checking permits. They were picky enough to have an issue with the fact that I was in a canoe and the permit listed all kayaks.
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Old 11-07-2011   #9
 
Arvada (Denver), Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckmanriver View Post
According to state water law could you run a permitted section of river without a permit as long as you never toughed the banks of the river?

The state owns the water not the parks or land management agency's.

Westwater would be a good example of this concept as you could make the run with out touching the permitted land.
Not according to state water law but according to state criminal trespass law, you may be in violation of the trespass statute, as it is presently written, if you touched the beds or banks of the natural stream. In the Colorado trespass statute, the definition of "premises" includes "beds and banks". HOWEVER, under the Law of Supremacy, Federal law prevails. Such being the case, and if you or anyone are willing to either get cited for trespass or file your own complaint to challenge the state statute all the way up to the Colorado State Supremes, you'd win, imho, to confirm your right to use the publicly owned water and the touching or contact with the submerged bedlands incidental to that use of the water.

Further, as already confirmed in local, state and Federal laws and rulings, you can access to/from natural streams via publicly owned land or a public right of way such as a public county bridge ROW. Remember, most county bridge ROW's are 60' wide. The bridge itself is usually 30' wide, leaving 15' of public travel right of way of any type on either side of the bridge. Even tho there's a fence attached to the bridge, you still have the confirmed right, under law, to travel by foot, bike, whatever, within that public bridge right of way.

Separate the two rights in your mindset... there's USE of and there's ACCESS to/from a natural stream. Understand the difference.

Lastly, if, under state REGULATIONS, you need a permit to make use of or access to/from a particular natural stream, such as WW section, that is different than whether you can avoid touching bottom to obviate the need for the permit. Whole different ball game. Touch or don't touch the bottom but get the permit to use the natural stream or section that requires, under state regulation, a permit.
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Old 11-07-2011   #10
 
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Denver, Colorado
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I agree with Canada...you don't want to be pitting the blm/access guys up against the state water owner guys...river users will end up with the shaft.

On another note: don't F with the westwater rangers...we picked up a pretty hefty fine for camping two groups together a week or so ago (total numbers were only 27 between the two permits, so not like we had 50 at a campsite). I'd never seen them sweep the canyon before, but they came through with a motor rig in the evening, then came through the next AM complete with law enforcement officer to fine us.
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