High water and Redwall Cavern - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 10-02-2012   #1
 
Aurora, Colorado
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High water and Redwall Cavern

I'm curious if anyone knows what water level it takes for water to be on the floor of Redwall Cavern in the Grand. I found this photo that was at 69K, and it looks like the sand would have been covered up.

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Old 10-02-2012   #2
 
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Originally Posted by climbdenali View Post
I'm curious if anyone knows what water level it takes for water to be on the floor of Redwall Cavern in the Grand. I found this photo that was at 69K, and it looks like the sand would have been covered up.
If you look close you can see that the back half of the cavern still has sand showing. In '83 it was somewhere between 80k and 85k.
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Old 10-04-2012   #3
 
Aurora, Colorado
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In '83 the peak flow recorded at Lee's Ferry was actually around 93,000 cfs. The photo was taken at 69,000 (the photographer says.).

Here's a hydrograph of the year:

And a link to the tabular data.
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Old 10-04-2012   #4
 
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Originally Posted by kikii875 View Post
If you look close you can see that the back half of the cavern still has sand showing. In '83 it was somewhere between 80k and 85k.
I was between trips when they bumped it up. One trip you could see some sand back there and the next you couldn't. That is why I am estimating somewhere in that range.
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Old 10-07-2012   #5
 
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70K-80k

Hi Climbd, there's a nice photo of the Esmeralda II parked in Redwall Cavern in 1949 that Edward Hudson (Ed Hudson's son) showed me. The stage is 60,000 cfs and it's June 13 if i recall correctly. The boat is pulled in to the sandy shore and from there flat sand goes to the back with maybe 12 inches of freeboard. Based on that photo, my guess is 70K to 80K would most likely have covered it. There is a photo of Redwall Cavern with the river climbing the ceiling in the book Big Water, Little Boats but the photo was taken on a flow of near 126,000 cfs June 12, 1957. Hope this helps, yours, tom
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Old 10-07-2012   #6
 
Basalt, Colorado
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Redwall Cavern at 150,000 cfs.

I was once running with Ed Gooch back in the 70's, when he spoke of Grand trips he had done prior to the Glen Canyon Dam. At 150,000 he said it was possible to touch the ceiling in the Cavern. Deer Creek Falls poured directly into the Colorado. There were whirlpools some 20 feet deep which contained whole dead cows. Ed was one of the original founders of OARS Inc.
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Old 10-07-2012   #7
 
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150,000??

Hey Hans, the gauges at Lee's and Phantom has never passed 126,000 cfs. How do you get 150,000cfs? Just curious... but ore important still, do you know if Gooch is still alive, alert and oriented x 3? If so, do you know how i could contact him? The cover of the Big Water book has a 1958 photo of Deer Creek falls dropping into the river with Fulmer's dory in front of the falls. On the 1957 Fulmer-Reilly trip, there was a tree eating whirlpool between Little Nankoweap and the mouth of Nankoweap Canyon. We saw (and really smelled) a dead cow in 2011 as it decayed on the shore river L below Bedrock. Some things never change :>)
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Old 10-08-2012   #8
 
Basalt, Colorado
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Ed Gooch

Tom: you are right, so I must have had a memory lapse. I found this thread talking about the 1957 trip with Georgie at 125,000 cfs. Sadly Ed is no longer with us. Great guy, who once took me to the Indian rain dances where dancers held live rattle snakes in their mouths. It rained! hanspeter
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Old 10-08-2012   #9
 
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What else do you recall about Ed?

Hi Hans, Thanks so much for your note. Well..... i got it wrong (again). The Big Water book notes there was a 127,000 cfs flow in 1927, and there was a 170,000 cfs flow in 1921 but that was a guess as the 1921 flood washed out the Lee's Ferry gauge and the Phantom gauge came on line in 1922. Then, after these two flows, was the 1957 126,000 cfs flow.

Watching that Snake Dance must have been amazing! Had you ever seen anything like that? What did you and Ed think about it?

Thanks again, hope you don't mind all the questions.. yours, tom
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Old 11-29-2012   #10
 
Glendale, Arizona
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Hello Hans and Tom! My father was the Ed Gooch you are speaking of and yes, he sadly is no longer with us. I wish I could provide you, Tom, with some of the information you are seeking. Unfortunately I don't have access to any of pictures or artifacts that my father had from his days as a boatman, as all of these things they are currently kept with my step-family. I do however have a journal that my grandfather, Ed Gooch Sr. gave to me. In it he discussed his early trips solo and with my dad through Glen Canyon and the Grand Canyon during the 1950's. My Grandfather's first trip was a solo Glen Canyon journey in 1952. He mentions a guide named Harry Aleson and of being his only passenger. He described the landscape and the fact that the river was at "then" historic flood stage. He also has a fascinating account of going through the Grand Canyon in ' 59 with my Dad who then worked for Georgie. It was during high flood waters and he describes what happened with the boats and passengers on the 3 boat "suicide boats" and on Georgie's larger boat. My Grandfather details his experience when all eight people on Georgie's large raft went overboard and of a person being sucked under the raft 3 times, and rescuing someone from a whirlpool vortex who was sucked under multiple times. I wish I personally knew of adventures my father experienced, but his stories were mostly told when I was a child. I did have the fortune of traveling through the Grand Canyon on the Colorado with him at the age of 8, yes 8, and again at 14. I also have the distinction of being part of the "Lava Swim Club"
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