Hi-N-Dry Paddle Shaft Float Invention - Page 3 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 04-22-2012   #21
 
Jenks, Oklahoma
Join Date: Oct 2004
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I have mixed feelings about this device.

On one hand, I can see it maybe helping some people. And, it is thinking outside the box.

On the other hand, I can easily see it becoming a false sense of security that could get a person into real danger if they start running real rapids thinking they have a roll so they are ready for the thrill of class 3 or above. And, as a long time ACA WW Kayak instructor, I think it could get a new person into habits that might be very hard to change when time comes to do away with the foamie.

Like most every thing involved in WW boating. It seems to me to be a personal decision. My bet tho is if a person with this type of device showed up to a group running class 4 or even 3 and asked to tag along ---- it would take a lot of convincing for the group to welcome that person to boat with them.

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Old 04-22-2012   #22
 
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NorCal, California
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I see this device helping sea kayakers. When your sea kayaking it's good to know how to roll but not essential because there are techniques where you can self rescue without a roll. I'd be curious to give this device a try out on the ocean.
Just my personal opinion but I dont see an application on rivers where there's no substitution for a bomber roll and a wet exit is not really safe imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by okieboater View Post
I have mixed feelings about this device.

On one hand, I can see it maybe helping some people. And, it is thinking outside the box.

On the other hand, I can easily see it becoming a false sense of security that could get a person into real danger if they start running real rapids thinking they have a roll so they are ready for the thrill of class 3 or above. And, as a long time ACA WW Kayak instructor, I think it could get a new person into habits that might be very hard to change when time comes to do away with the foamie.

Like most every thing involved in WW boating. It seems to me to be a personal decision. My bet tho is if a person with this type of device showed up to a group running class 4 or even 3 and asked to tag along ---- it would take a lot of convincing for the group to welcome that person to boat with them.
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Old 04-22-2012   #23
 
SW, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Bad technique is bad technique, regardless of which type of kayak being used. I paddle both WW and sea, and a good roll is THE #1 choice of sea kayakers who know how to do it, especially in surf or other rough water.

Maybe what you really mean is purely sheltered flatwater paddling on a dead-calm day with no tidal streams or ship traffic, no wind, etc. I can get back into my little WW boat on such a day and place without rolling, too--"cowboy rescue" a la sea kayaking. But rolling is still my go-to recovery technique regardless where, when, or which kayak. I do the other techniques so that I'm not a one-trick pony.

Better to spend time and effort on learning good technique than completely relying on a device. But it's a free country, so if you want to buy it nobody's gonna stop you.

This guy is doing his free advertising on at least two other websites I just looked at, probably just the tip of the iceberg.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavester View Post
I see this device helping sea kayakers. When your sea kayaking it's good to know how to roll but not essential because there are techniques where you can self rescue without a roll. I'd be curious to give this device a try out on the ocean.
Just my personal opinion but I dont see an application on rivers where there's no substitution for a bomber roll and a wet exit is not really safe imo.
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Old 04-22-2012   #24
 
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NorCal, California
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Well I guess I'm getting off topic a little but I do take issue with your post.

Sea kayaking is different then river kayaking and many advanced paddlers in the open ocean rely on different methods to get back into their boats, even in rough seas. I live on the Monterey Bay and paddle year round even in rough seas. I own 2 sea kayaks an 18' and a 16.5'. Although I'm just an intermediate paddler I do paddle with people I consider experts who teach many excepted means of self rescue including an eskimo roll and we practice these methods almost everytime we go out. I was in no way saying that people should paddle in the ocean without proper training but there are in fact expert sea kayakers that dont have a roll and that is perfectly safe as long as they can get back into their boats in all conditions and are prepared clothing wise.


I have never heard of "cowboy rescue" but I have heard of the "Paddle Float Rescue", probably the most widely used technique to get back into your boat on the open ocean. Here's a link by Nigel foster, the guy who writes books on sea kayaking. But as an expert sea kayaker in CO you probably already know this?
http://www.seakayakermag.com/1997/feb97/foster1.htm


Quote:
Originally Posted by H2UhOh View Post
Bad technique is bad technique, regardless of which type of kayak being used. I paddle both WW and sea, and a good roll is THE #1 choice of sea kayakers who know how to do it, especially in surf or other rough water.

Maybe what you really mean is purely sheltered flatwater paddling on a dead-calm day with no tidal streams or ship traffic, no wind, etc. I can get back into my little WW boat on such a day and place without rolling, too--"cowboy rescue" a la sea kayaking. But rolling is still my go-to recovery technique regardless where, when, or which kayak. I do the other techniques so that I'm not a one-trick pony.

Better to spend time and effort on learning good technique than completely relying on a device. But it's a free country, so if you want to buy it nobody's gonna stop you.

This guy is doing his free advertising on at least two other websites I just looked at, probably just the tip of the iceberg.
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Old 04-22-2012   #25
 
SW, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2010
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No kidding sea kayaking is different from river kayaking. But as I said before, bad technique is bad technique regardless which type of paddling. I know there are sea kayakers who don't have a roll. There are also many who do, and generally someone who has a solid roll in moving water (ocean or river) will prefer that over the other methods of solo recovery.

How many sea kayaks you own reveals absolutely nothing about your skills. I own two myself--so what. The fact that you live in Monterey also means little, because that doesn't mean you automatically know sea kayaking.

You picked on my current location as an indicator of skill. Do you really trust that as a reliable indication of skill? Even though I live in Colorado now, I grew up near the coast and have traveled many times to go "real sea kayaking" along west, east, and gulf coasts, including a self-supported one-month expedition in Alaska. I've probably put in more hours at sea than you have...but again, that statistic doesn't mean much by itself. It is the disciplined practice that matters, and that is the gist of my message about bad technique: this float device could easily encourage bad technique in rolling.

Cowboy rescue is a much quicker version of paddle-float rescue--NO paddle-float required. If you're an intermediate sea kayaker I am surprised you don't know this technique already. It is controversial but apparent that at least some sea kayakers can use it in rough conditions. But a good roll is still the preferred recovery method for those who have it.

Maybe I should've put my OTHER address on my profile? Washington state, and right at the coast. Oh...and I gained proficiency at paddle-float rescue 10 years ago...stopped practicing it after learning to roll, re-enter and roll (two ways), do cowboy rescue. Assisted rescues are also part of the quiver.

You don't have to agree with me; I didn't ask for that and never will. But your assumption that I don't know sea kayaking based on my current address is ridiculous.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavester View Post
Well I guess I'm getting off topic a little but I do take issue with your post.

Sea kayaking is different then river kayaking and many advanced paddlers in the open ocean rely on different methods to get back into their boats, even in rough seas. I live on the Monterey Bay and paddle year round even in rough seas. I own 2 sea kayaks an 18' and a 16.5'. Although I'm just an intermediate paddler I do paddle with people I consider experts who teach many excepted means of self rescue including an eskimo roll and we practice these methods almost everytime we go out. I was in no way saying that people should paddle in the ocean without proper training but there are in fact expert sea kayakers that dont have a roll and that is perfectly safe as long as they can get back into their boats in all conditions and are prepared clothing wise.

But I guess you already know this as an expert sea kayaker living CO?
I have never heard of "cowboy rescue" but I have heard of the "Paddle Float Rescue", probably the most widely used technique to get back into your boat on the open ocean.
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Old 04-22-2012   #26
 
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Kalispell, Montana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H2UhOh View Post
Cowboy rescue is a much quicker version of paddle-float rescue--NO paddle-float required. If you're an intermediate sea kayaker I am surprised you don't know this technique already. It is controversial but apparent that at least some sea kayakers can use it in rough conditions. But a good roll is still the preferred recovery method for those who have it.
I'm surprised, too. It's definitely do-able by a reasonably skilled intermediate kayaker.

It's something any sea kayaker should try. If it works, great, keep using it. If it doesn't work, you know why--but don't just take someone elses' word for it (i.e. the technique being controversial).

I can do it in 3.5' wind chop....er...I could 5-6 years ago when I was paddling more frequently.
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Old 04-22-2012   #27
 
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NorCal, California
Paddling Since: 91
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Posts: 355
Well actually your comment showed you know very little about sea kayaking not where you live. But I guess you did stay at a Holiday Inn Express somewhere in WA and I'm glad you got your roll down at lake Arvada. Good luck with that, now you can work on your humility, most people I know that are good at most anything seem to have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H2UhOh View Post
No kidding sea kayaking is different from river kayaking. But as I said before, bad technique is bad technique regardless which type of paddling. I know there are sea kayakers who don't have a roll. There are also many who do, and generally someone who has a solid roll in moving water (ocean or river) will prefer that over the other methods of solo recovery.

How many sea kayaks you own reveals absolutely nothing about your skills. I own two myself--so what. The fact that you live in Monterey also means little, because that doesn't mean you automatically know sea kayaking.

You picked on my current location as an indicator of skill. Do you really trust that as a reliable indication of skill? Even though I live in Colorado now, I grew up near the coast and have traveled many times to go "real sea kayaking" along west, east, and gulf coasts, including a self-supported one-month expedition in Alaska. I've probably put in more hours at sea than you have...but again, that statistic doesn't mean much by itself. It is the disciplined practice that matters, and that is the gist of my message about bad technique: this float device could easily encourage bad technique in rolling.

Cowboy rescue is a much quicker version of paddle-float rescue--NO paddle-float required. If you're an intermediate sea kayaker I am surprised you don't know this technique already. It is controversial but apparent that at least some sea kayakers can use it in rough conditions. But a good roll is still the preferred recovery method for those who have it.

Maybe I should've put my OTHER address on my profile? Washington state, and right at the coast. Oh...and I gained proficiency at paddle-float rescue 10 years ago...stopped practicing it after learning to roll, re-enter and roll (two ways), do cowboy rescue. Assisted rescues are also part of the quiver.

You don't have to agree with me; I didn't ask for that and never will. But your assumption that I don't know sea kayaking based on my current address is ridiculous.
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Old 04-22-2012   #28
 
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NorCal, California
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Posts: 355
It's also called the "scramble rescue" at least around here and doesn't work as well for me in large swell. But it could just be my lack of balance
I rarely paddle alone especially in the winter and my plan B in the unlikely event of a wet exit would be a 2 person T-rescue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MT4Runner View Post
I'm surprised, too. It's definitely do-able by a reasonably skilled intermediate kayaker.

It's something any sea kayaker should try. If it works, great, keep using it. If it doesn't work, you know why--but don't just take someone elses' word for it (i.e. the technique being controversial).

I can do it in 3.5' wind chop....er...I could 5-6 years ago when I was paddling more frequently.
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Old 04-23-2012   #29
 
SW, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 90
LOL, you're making ass-umptions again. Wrong ones.

Personal attacks, like the one you started off with, are not the same as a critique of the product, which is what this thread and MY replies to your comments addressed. If I had to give up my normal humility to refute your unfounded ass-umption, so be it. The techniques I mentioned are such a tiny, tiny part of the rest of the skills package required for sea kayaking. At least I know that much.

Your level of reading comprehension is abyssmal, so I will let your next personal attack be the final word on this sub-topic.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavester View Post
Well actually your comment showed you know very little about sea kayaking not where you live. But I guess you did stay at a Holiday Inn Express somewhere in WA and I'm glad you got your roll down at lake Arvada. Good luck with that, now you can work on your humility, most people I know that are good at most anything seem to have it.
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Old 04-23-2012   #30
 
SW, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 90
Most techniques are worth trying at least once or twice, as long as they don't pose an obvious high ergonomic risk.

And they all require proper practice to get and stay good at!


Quote:
Originally Posted by MT4Runner View Post
I'm surprised, too. It's definitely do-able by a reasonably skilled intermediate kayaker.

It's something any sea kayaker should try. If it works, great, keep using it. If it doesn't work, you know why--but don't just take someone elses' word for it (i.e. the technique being controversial).

I can do it in 3.5' wind chop....er...I could 5-6 years ago when I was paddling more frequently.
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