Frame set-up and rigging advice needed - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 05-06-2008   #1
 
raftus's Avatar
 
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,165
Frame set-up and rigging advice needed

Where do you rig your firepan? AAA Inflatables recommended that I make my dry box bay 3 inches longer than the dry box and rig the firepan on it's side next to the dry box - sounds good to me, any feedback?

Where do you rig your water jug(s)? I have seen them next to the cooler, this seems good. I could fit a 150 quart cooler without the water next to it, or go with a 120 quart and have just enough space for a 6-gal jug. Will I miss the 30 qts, any downsides?

Where do you rig your camp stove? I thought it might go into the drybox, but that could take up a lot of space in the drybox. Other ideas?

Where do you rig your groover? Ammo cans seems like a easy way to do the groover and I am thinking about a drop floor in the rowers compartment, one ammo can on each side, strapped to the floor.

What other items am I forgetting about needing to rig?

I have a 14' hyside. It has 74" of straight tube and the gum chafers are 82". Because I am 6'5 with a 36" inseam (requires a longer rowers compartment) I think 3 bays is the most I can get away with, unless the 4th bay is quite small, maybe 8-10" wide. I am thinking about a single rail frame with removable 1" plywood decks on each side that could carry additional ammo cans or propane canisters if needed, but I would prefer to keep only soft items above the tube/cooler height.

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Old 05-06-2008   #2
Dipshit with the most.
 
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Bellevue, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: May 2005
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Sounds like you need to get a bigger raft with that much rafter in the middle of the rig. I am in a bigger raft ( Willi 2), but will share a few things.
I have a table in front ( plywood surfaced round tubing for legs. folds up and is where my peeps sit), large dry box behind that. The box is big enough that I can put the fire pan on top of that if need be. I have two small side boxes in the row compartment and don't know how I went down the river without them. One is for lunch and one is my locker.
I sit on a dry box ( foam on top ) and have a cooler in a drop frame in back. I can also rig the fire pan on the cooler.
With the table in the front and the drop frame in the back I don't have a ton of floor space at either end, but I prefer this to beavertail and/or other types of rigging.

I try to keep my heaviest items close to the middle of the boat. In automotive terms: less unsprung weight. The closer the weight is to the axis on which the boat spins the easier it is. If my cooler is heavy and I dont have a much weight up front, then the fire pan and water goes up front. (btw I prefer a pair of three gallon jugs to one six. Easier to rig and get low in the rig so less edges for people to bang knees.)

I do keep my stove in a box, but i have tons of drybox space. If someone else is carrying the groover, rocket boxes are great. When it is just me and my wife I use a plastic bucket with a screw top that has an o-ring in it. I don't know where I got this to be honest, but I have heard of others acquiring them as well so I know they are around. I still wouldn't lay it down and the rectangle shape of the rockets would fit in the row compartment but I don't want the shit anywhere close to me. I did rig up a sling for my bucket in the stern once so that it hung inside was supported, couldn't tip, but that was a low water Middle Fork rig, not a high water setup.

With the new landfill approved bags I would be tempted to just do that, if I didn't have a setup. But don't know how much or how many people you are thinking of rigging this for.

Sorry to let you know that the MF trip is full up now. The permit holder added a couple of kayakers yesterday. Dave can't make it either.
But if things change I will let you know. Always looking for something or someone random to bring some spice to the mix.

Cheers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by raftus View Post
Where do you rig your firepan? AAA Inflatables recommended that I make my dry box bay 3 inches longer than the dry box and rig the firepan on it's side next to the dry box - sounds good to me, any feedback?

Where do you rig your water jug(s)? I have seen them next to the cooler, this seems good. I could fit a 150 quart cooler without the water next to it, or go with a 120 quart and have just enough space for a 6-gal jug. Will I miss the 30 qts, any downsides?

Where do you rig your camp stove? I thought it might go into the drybox, but that could take up a lot of space in the drybox. Other ideas?

Where do you rig your groover? Ammo cans seems like a easy way to do the groover and I am thinking about a drop floor in the rowers compartment, one ammo can on each side, strapped to the floor.

What other items am I forgetting about needing to rig?

I have a 14' hyside. It has 74" of straight tube and the gum chafers are 82". Because I am 6'5 with a 36" inseam (requires a longer rowers compartment) I think 3 bays is the most I can get away with, unless the 4th bay is quite small, maybe 8-10" wide. I am thinking about a single rail frame with removable 1" plywood decks on each side that could carry additional ammo cans or propane canisters if needed, but I would prefer to keep only soft items above the tube/cooler height.
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Old 05-06-2008   #3
 
Andy H.'s Avatar
 
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
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A lot of this depends on what kind & shape your firepan / groover / etc. is and also the other aspects of what you're going to have in the other bays(drybox, cooler, etc.). Assuming you've got the ubiquitous Ecosafe groover setup which goes into a large rocket box, most folks just put the box along with ammo cans in a bay that is sized to take them.

When I carry a stove, its in my box but its just a small 2-burner coleman and doesn't take much room. A lot of how I rig water depends on whether I'm carrying passengers or not, trip duration, and other factors. If I have a rider or two, I'll put the water along the rails on the by the drybox. If not, I'll carry it in front.

I have a drop bag with a top that zips shut under my seat (one of the best things I've ever gotten from AAA). I put the firepan in the bottom of that and put camp chairs & lighter-weight gear on top of it. If I'm going for longer, I'll lash the camp chairs along the frame rails. One thing to consider with a firepan is that its good to have it where it'll give you a lower center of gravity - that's why I like having it in the bottom of a drop bag laying flat. The thought of dedicating a special bay to the firepan seems odd to me.

There'll be some good annswers to your questions here on the "Buzz but before you throw down the big bucks get your frame (& accessories) built, you may want to check with other frame builders and also toss your question out to a couple of thousand rafters at the Utahrafters and Idahowhitewater groups, along with the GCPBA group.

Good luck finding the right setup,

-AH
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Old 05-06-2008   #4
no tengo
 
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Baytopia, Colorado
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Ah raftus is making the move from class V paddle rafting to class III float and bloat. guess we all get older.

Sean I second putting the center of mass near the center of the boat or at least near the oarlocks to make turning easier. If you are solo - then you sit in the center cause you are the heaviest thing - so your oarlocks will be slightly forward. I always try to put my water jugs right under the oarlocks - this makes for the easiest turning.

on the grand I just put a firepan on the floor up front under a york box. it was in a nylon bag. it didnt hurt a thing.

have someone look at your waterline and see if you are balanced. you really want to be able to go forward or backward through a rapid and be balanced.

cheers.
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Old 05-06-2008   #5
 
oarbender's Avatar
 
ww guide/ frame builder/welder, mobile fabrication gig
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I built a rig that works pretty sweet for several of the items you mentioned.
Its a fire pan, that holds 4 ammo cans. 2 for groover, 2 misc. on either side setting on the floor, are two 5 gallon watewr jugs, the fire pan is suspended from the cross bars, and occupies a bay. on top of the ammos, sits my 6 burner partner stove, and on top of that sits the griddle, it all fits real nice, and can be adjusted by cams if your not carrying all those goods.
its stable enough for a set, but I put a table across the whole set up.
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Old 05-06-2008   #6
 
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Boulder, Colorado
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What are people's thoughts about stretching the frame just a little longer than the flat area of the tubes? Mine pushes this just a little and shows no excess wear. 3 bays seems too small. The 4th really seems to make it all work.

CArvedog's rig is super well thought out. The amount of dry box space is the most I have seen on a 16 foot boat. The captains boxes are great. i saw some at frontier play for pretty reasonable.

Seats re nice, but they make it much harder to get at whatever is under them, as well as make you sit up higher. I always feel I wish I were sitting as low as I could. I plan to try sitting on the dry box, with my personal bag as the back rest.

A table up front seems all but mandatory. It can be wider than the front most bay, by adding d rings in front of the frame for it. The extra height of the frame tube lets you go out over the rocker of the tube. Load this bay up higher to get more leg room for passengers, and fit more stuff under it. Pad it with a paco.

Carrying smaller waters seems like a good idea.

I try to avoid putting the fire pan on the bottom to avoid hard things down low, but this is no different than a dry box that goes all the way down.

I have the ecosafe (rocket box) groover tanks, but really wish I had gone with the cube shaped plastic one. I really dislike the eco seat, both for use and size to store/carry.

When making side boards, make sure they don't interfere with access to the allen bolts on your oar towers.
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Old 05-06-2008   #7
 
aurora, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 110
Frames bigger than flats

Rather than extend the entire frame so that it rubs where the boat kicks, you could do something like this


BigEddy.com The River Source

I did it on my 17' and have a frame kinda like the 'major baggage' I run captain's bay totally open, drybox+Groover#1 in one inner bay, cooler+groover#2 in next inner bay, have a drop bag for one outside bay, and am planning either two smaller dryboxes for the other outside bay, or a 'captains cooler' for my private cold beer stash on those long desert cruises. Firepan goes on the suspended floor in front or back, as well as water jugs, beer, soda, etc. Dropbag is used for unruly/hard to secure items such as chairs, rollatables, tarps, etc. I LOVE diamondplate rails, as it gives a great place to strap things like personal ammo cans, the backup stove, and my personal favorite, the gott/rubbermaid 5 gallon water cooler. Makes filling personal waterbottles a breeze, can be easily accessible all day, and for a treat, toss in an extra block of ice for cold water.
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Old 05-06-2008   #8
 
mountains, Colorado
Paddling Since: '92
Join Date: Mar 2008
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custom

My 2 cents:
Go with an NRS fully adjustable frame and play with it for the next 50 years of your life. After floating with a bunch of folks over the years I realized that there is more than one way to skin a monkey. Get your boat, play with it and make it yours. Steal ideas that work for you.

I don't think I've ever rigged the same way twice. An 18 day Grand trip looks alot different than a 2 day ruby/horsethief. Unless you can count on running the same river at the same level with the same people and all the other variables the same, then I suggest getting someting adjustable. A bigger boat would help too. Don't let the little boat folks scare you. We took an 18 footer down browns 2 weeks ago at 720 cfs. No problem. My 16' cat has been down at 450.

On that note...I would love to see people take this summer and post pics of their different riggings so that Mountainbuzz could become a database for the sweet custom riggings out there.
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Old 05-06-2008   #9
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 15
Wrap your firepan in a tarp and put it at the botom of your load, put your water jug in the open spot next to your cooler and give the Groover to someone else in your group!
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Old 05-06-2008   #10
 
prescott, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1982
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 280
here's what i've been using for a fire pan setup for years.

i got 3 of those metal oil drain pans, nested together.

inside the pans you can fit a 50 cal. ammo can (ash can), hatchet, channel lock pliers, small trowel and a jug of lighter fluid. on top of that i put a small grill or two (ones that are just a little bigger than the pan). then put it all in a bag. any old bag will work. then you can rig it anywhere. no sharp edges to deal with.

you can put all three together to get a pretty good sized fire going. or use one or two for grilling and the other to get a fire going till dinner is served.

bob
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