the saga continues - Page 9 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 12-29-2016   #81
 
Somewhere in, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garystrome View Post
the entity in question is was actually a corp / business and as such has an id severable from the self. If you feel you were wronged by the person, go after them. If you feel you were wronged by a business entity, go after it. The folks that donated money to the entity in advance of services actually contributed to the problem. Don't give money in advance of services. That's a fools game.
Gary. I do not know you. Have never done business with you. But you sound like James. I will never send my business to either of you. Thanks for sparing me the time and money. Like any of us wants to take legal action over a fucking boat frame. Nice perspective, calling folks who have been wronged "fools".

In such a small world as the boating/rafting industry why would you feel like you have to conduct business in such an anti-customer way (speaking of James here)? Tell the customer the truth when shit its the fan, and 95% of the time everything is okay. Just communicate.

As a business owner/production manager I am sitting in the middle seat here. Yes, customers can piss you off all day long, but in the end they pay the bills. Even when unreasonable, they're the customer.....paying the bills. Ripping them off is a moral decision that says way more about seller than the buyer.

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Old 12-29-2016   #82
 
Jenks, Oklahoma
Join Date: Oct 2004
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The man who gets all the negative customer comments on this message board (seems like he has posted under various names) has not received any business from me. Based on his reputation and posts on this msg board, he has a lot of unhappy customers.

I have done several business transactions with Gary including a frame. It took a long series of emails and questions from me before I ordered a frame from Gary.

In my case, Gary produced a quality frame exactly as I specified and in fact his advice made for a better frame for me.

Gary has treated me really well and produced a quality frame at a very reasonable cost and I paid with a check after I got the frame. So he gets my future business and recommendation. Plus Gary likes stuff "Made in America" which in my opinion is a good thing.
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Old 12-29-2016   #83
 
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Belgrade, Montana
Paddling Since: 1991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garystrome View Post
Shameless Self PromotionÖJames
I first heard the term from a gentleman many years ago. The buzz is a perfect place for it.After all you really didnít expect the truth from a forum like thisÖ.did you?Welders by nature are the cockiest folks on the planet.It originates from the knowledge that they conjure from scratch a structure that is an extension of their mind.
Most folks work for others and lack any control in their lives. They do the tricks that their masters demand.Welders risk time, money, failure to exercise their trades.Whilst many are calculating the sales tax at the burger bars, welders are computing the internal angles and subsequent miters that necessitate a joint.
If you havenít noticed, the skilled trades-people are almost all gone. The boats you seek are all of foreign origin and absent the quality associated with domestic manufacture.Most of your generation aspires to own a Kia which makes me sad.
James has a small Oregon company. Your should patronize his business; just donít give any money in advance lest you risk the principal.Or perhaps a solution in escrow funds can be reached.
And let me guess, your a welder? Stupid is as stupid does...
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Old 12-29-2016   #84
 
Rosa, At the bottom of the Lake
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I got my boat from James about a year and half late. I really like the boat, just not all the shenanigans to get it. I had never bought a frame before but I have purchased small batch products such as custom mountain bike frames, fly rods, and even commissioned art pieces before. A deposit has been required for some of those transactions, I guess I'm a fool?

Hell dealing with one of the most reputable drift boat manufactures in the world earlier this year, I payed in full, sight unseen (of course this was not a show of faith but a sneaky way to avoid sales tax). No problems as expected, call me a fool for operating on a handshake and an assumption that there are decent respectable people in this world, who also happen to make nice boats.

I feel I was treated poorly, but If Gary says I'm in the wrong than I'll take it on the chin. Mother Robusta told me to always consider the source when listening to people...Especially when they make it obvious they don't want/need my business. Someone calling me a fool puts them on that list. Luckily grateful frame builders are a dime a dozen.
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Old 12-29-2016   #85
 
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Lakewood, Colorado
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First off, I'm not talking about Gary in this instance at all since he seems to make a decent product for a reasonable price when he has the time. I can't say I agree with some of the stuff he has posted lately most notably that skilled trades people are almost all gone.

I've met a ton of cocky welder/fabricators in my day. One of my other hobbies for a while was rock crawling, and it obviously takes some skills to build and upgrade those vehicles and the fabrication is never as easy as it seems like it would be from an inexperienced persons point of view. I've seen some people who have a knack for it and others (like myself) who don't and have to work at it to get it right.

Some of those people with "the knack" had a major attitude about it and treated it like it was an ability that no one else in the world could possibly have. James certainly comes off as one of those people. They decide that they are a big deal and run their life under that assumption and anyone who says otherwise is full of shit and is just trying to denigrate their reputation because they are assholes. The reality is that they really aren't that big a deal and that there are thousands of people with similar skills in the world.

I know some guys who can throw a custom Roll Cage together, without plans or drawings, using only a tape measure and their eyes and have it welded and ready to go in a day. This includes making "one off" custom multi-axis bends the first time and still have it be symetrical and square. They don't need fancy machines or to spend a week programming in Solidworks. Oh, and they do this all with a smile and no attitude and for a reasonable price.

As far as I can tell, in addition to being a dishonest shiester James suffers from trying to make overly complicated designs that take too much setup time and use systems that require too much setup. He expects people not only to pay extra to accommodate this, but also to wait and deal with his hyperbole. It is no surprise that he doesn't get much business. There are only a very small group of people out there willing to put up with that.

At the end of the day, the majority of people in the world aren't "mindless burger flippers" and have jobs that require just as much thoughtfulness and skill as measuring out some tube and welding it together. I have a huge respect for people who are highly skilled at their profession and I deal with them all the time. I hate to break it to you, but there are 10's of thousands of people who do a similar job to you in this country. They may not specialize in the rafting frame business, but there are lots and lots of fabricators and welders and machinists and ironworkers in this world.
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Old 12-29-2016   #86
 
Park City, Utah
Paddling Since: 1982
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EM,
You made a very good point. One I was going to make, but figured I'd butt out for a while, but eh, what the hell.

Owning a construction company in a resort town like Park City, we use all types of trades. Gary is wrong. Craftsmanship is not dead and though I use to wonder who was going to carry on the tradition, I'm pleased to say that the current generation(s) has/have picked up the torch. Most work around here, as it is in most resort town of this caliber is often high end. Mediocrity won't cut it. There's some awesome designs and fabrication with all types of material going on these days. In 25+ years of doing this, I've noticed that some trades or skill sets, like welding and woodworking sometimes attract that artistic, quirky, slight high strung individual that can sometimes be a challenge to work with, but we've always gotten the job done and the customer elated with the finished product. I've never been ripped off either. Don't get me started on roofers though.

In the interest of full disclosure, I started out in custom millwork and cabinetmaking over 40 years ago and do retain some slightly, just slightly quirky tendencies myself.

Now, I don't want to completely hijack this thread, so I bring back around to it's original purpose. James is still an ass clown!
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Old 12-30-2016   #87
 
Willimina, Willimina, OR
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takeaway

Don't give him money in advance of fabrication. Money is the motivating incentive to complete the transaction. Your money is power and parting with it based on a promise is the defining issue.

I'm not a welder. However, I am an artist. I've also known a lot of welders over time and the ego gets so thick its unnavigable.
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Old 12-30-2016   #88
 
Aurora, Colorado
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Originally Posted by garystrome View Post
Don't give him money in advance of fabrication. Money is the motivating incentive to complete the transaction. Your money is power and parting with it based on a promise is the defining issue.
Give me a break. There are plenty of things we pay for ahead of time, with the trust that the vendor is going to perform. Trust is what allows the market to work the way it does. At some point, you simply have to have trust in the people you're working/contracting with.

To say, "Never pay for anything until you have it in your possession" is just ridiculous. From the fabricator's side, why would he want to invest his time and material until you've paid for it? I mean, you could just walk away, then he's stuck with a hunk of custom metal nobody else wants.

It's equally unreasonable for each party to want to have all of the leverage, however understandable that may be. That's why we compromise: "give me a 50% deposit". I mean, even buying and selling homes, the single largest investment most of us will ever make, there are often points in the transaction where both sides are putting it out there a little bit, and have to trust that the other side is working in good faith and is going to perform.

A more reasonable lesson may be, "Don't pay cash prior to delivery- use a credit card company that will protect you."
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Old 12-31-2016   #89
 
Willimina, Willimina, OR
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Trust

Quote:
Originally Posted by climbdenali View Post
Give me a break. There are plenty of things we pay for ahead of time, with the trust that the vendor is going to perform. Trust is what allows the market to work the way it does. At some point, you simply have to have trust in the people you're working/contracting with.

To say, "Never pay for anything until you have it in your possession" is just ridiculous. From the fabricator's side, why would he want to invest his time and material until you've paid for it? I mean, you could just walk away, then he's stuck with a hunk of custom metal nobody else wants.

It's equally unreasonable for each party to want to have all of the leverage, however understandable that may be. That's why we compromise: "give me a 50% deposit". I mean, even buying and selling homes, the single largest investment most of us will ever make, there are often points in the transaction where both sides are putting it out there a little bit, and have to trust that the other side is working in good faith and is going to perform.

A more reasonable lesson may be, "Don't pay cash prior to delivery- use a credit card company that will protect you."
You use the word trust. Then you have to pay money. The whole notion of money in advance stems from lack of trust. Similarly, a handshake used to be a contract. However, a handshake with a security deposit is a oxymoron. Not to diminish the original problem, giving money in advance of product is half the problem of non performance. There are subtleties that can make it work, i.e. a contract, a schedule, consequences, etc..
Also, don't believe that a credit card will protect you. It will afford you some rights but protect you it won't.
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Old 12-31-2016   #90
 
Aurora, Colorado
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OK, so in many of these cases the CC dispute process might not have worked- apparently you have to file a billing dispute within 60 days of the charge. The Fair Credit Billing Act does go a LONG way in protecting consumers from sellers who do not deliver goods/services as agreed upon.

I guess the lesson is have a good lawyer or be prepared to file suit yourself. In my county, I'm pretty sure small claims only goes up to $5000 damages.

Somebody posted earlier that if you meet one asshole in a day, it's probably them, but if everybody you meet is an asshole, it's probably you. I'll give you my corollary: If you meet one shady, untrustworthy person in a day, it's probably them. If you go through life believing that everyone is an untrustworthy cheat, it might be you. . .
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